Interview: Sabreena Merchant, writer at SB Nation, breaking down the WNBA Playoffs
In this episode, Lindsay Gibbs and Sabreena Merchant, W/NBA writer for SB Nation and co-host of The Step Through, break down the rollercoaster of the WNBA playoffs, including Becky Hammon's historic championship title with league MVP A'ja Wilson, playoff MVP Chelsea Gray, and rest of the dynamic Las Vegas Aces team. They also discuss the potential off seasons trades and moves for the Connecticut Sun, Seattle Storm and LA Sparks, as well as the potential impact of the CBA's prioritization clause on the 2023 season and players who continue to play overseas in the WNBA off-season.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Transcript
Lindsay: Hello and welcome to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast you need. I am Lindsay Gibbs, here for your interview episode for this week. We have a lot of WNBA to talk about. Joining me is the great Sabreena Merchant from SB Nation. Sabreena, how are you doing?
Sabreena: I'm doing great. I am just checking in on the Las Vegas Aces Twitter account right now, and my goodness, are they petty!
Lindsay: [laughs] Oh no. What are they doing? Okay. So, we are gonna be talking today about the WNBA finals. We are recording this Sunday night, moments after the Aces beat the Connecticut Sun. I think it was 78-71 in game four to clench their franchise’s very first WNBA finals game. We're gonna go into a little bit of the series. We're gonna talk WNBA offseason storylines to follow. There are a lot of free agents, you guys. [laughs] There are just so many free agents. And then because Sabreena covers the Sparks closely, I'm gonna force her to talk to me about the Sparks. But first, tell me what's going on on that Twitter account. [laughs]
Sabreena: So, I think most people saw the tweet…Because as you just said, we're recording pretty shortly after the press conference has ended in Connecticut. The Vegas Aces put up one tweet where Connecticut had put up a banner saying that they had made the 2022 WNBA finals. And so the Aces just put up a picture of like, oh, Connecticut has their banners up real quick, because that's the last thing they'll be able to hoisted for the 2022 season.
Lindsay: [laughs] Oh, I see it. They're fast.
Sabreena: Honestly, I did not think too much of that one. I think it's perfectly fine. Like, it goes in line with the Curt Miller Eastern conference championship comments, whatever. The one that's getting to me is Connecticut apparently responded to them about not making the postseason back in 2019. The Aces have retweeted that little exchange from three years ago.
Lindsay: Oh, my gosh.
Sabreena: You know, that's digging.
Lindsay: Some social media managers are just doing some great work. Yeah. So, I'm reading this right now. I'm so glad you had this up. The Sun tweeted to the Aces in 2019, “Looking forward to our showdowns in the regular season, and maybe even the postseason. Those are the games that happen after the regular season in case you forgot. It’s been a while.” And the Aces quote retweeted that and said, hi, we kept the receipts. So, I love petty.
But look, we could talk pettiness and tweets, but we gotta talk this game a little bit. This was a really good series for a four game series. Like, the thing I hate about five game series is I feel like they're only really good if they go to five games. Like, they're only really that dramatic. But I don't know, a dramatic game four is pretty cool. And I just thought the way that the Sun bounced back in game three and then took this to game four and fought til the bitter end was pretty impressive. What did you think of this game? Were you ever in doubt that the Aces were gonna win it all?
Sabreena: No, I was never in doubt that the Aces were gonna win it all. I honestly thought it was gonna take three. I did not have a lot of faith in this matchup for the Connecticut Sun. Nothing against Connecticut. Like, I don't wanna add to the disrespect narrative. I just think that the way Vegas conducts its offense makes it very challenging for a team like Connecticut that is low on perimeter defenders to get things done. I mean, kudos to them for hitting back in game three, like, we could have been talking about Connecticut winning this series in game four. Like, that's how close game one and game four were, to be in that position, like you said, in a four game series, and for Las Vegas to have given us two of these four game series in the same postseason that were both epic. Like, both of them, you forget that there wasn't actually a do or die game at the end because they were so dramatic. Like, in those…I mean the Vegas-Seattle series was dramatic, like from the get go.
But at least Connecticut brought it for three outta the four games. What a capper to the season. Like, I think Vegas has just consistently been the best team in the league throughout the entirety of the year. Like, they had that brief slip up when they blew that 28 point lead to Chicago and sort of went in that midseason malaise. But like, that's a thing that happens. It's 36 game season. Like, you're allowed to take a couple weeks from not being the best defense possible. But just other than that, they've hit every touch point that you'd expect, right? Like, they had the best record in the regular season. They won the Commissioner's Cup. They had the MVP, the defensive player of the year, the coach of the year, the most improved player, and they're sitting here as the 2022 WNBA champs. It feels very destined. It feels very perfect. I never really had a doubt that they were gonna get this done. But even so, with Connecticut up by a point with two minutes left in the game, like, to think how close it came to going back to Las Vegas… [laughs]
Lindsay: It came so close. So, there’s this sequence…I wrote it down, because I just was like, this was so key. So, the Sun are down 67-61 with 3 minutes and 45 seconds left. Kelsey Plum flagrant one on Bonner as she's shooting a three. I mean, it felt at that moment like, you know, the Aces had all the momentum. And then Bonner hits all three of her free throws. The Sun get to keep the ball. JJ makes a two pointer. Then JJ gets a steal and Riquna Williams fouls Courtney Williams. And Courtney goes one of two from the line and it is tied at 67. There's then a shot clock turnover by the Aces. So, the Sun defense is doing what it's done all season. And Courtney Williams makes a two. The Sun go up 69-67, just a little over two minutes left. And it really felt, wait, is this happening? [laughs] Is this happening?
Sabreena: [laughs] Yeah.
Lindsay: And then…Was it A’ja Wilson? Was it Jackie Young? Was it Kelsey Plum? Was it Chelsea Gray? No, it was Riquna Williams, the seventh player in the rotation all season behind Hamby, you know, with Hamby's injury, I think she went up to sixth. But the seventh player on their list who’s made eight points in the final two minutes. [laughs]
Sabreena: Incredible stuff.
Lindsay: That's how they won! I mean, it was absolutely wild. So, it did feel like fate, like destiny, but it was not an easy route to get there, and it certainly could have gone off the rails.
Sabreena: Yeah. It's so crazy to think about this Aces team that has been just incredibly starter dominant all year, and everyone was saying, like, Becky plays her starters too much. Like, what do they actually have beyond their first five? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And here we are, the team that produced I guess the last three sixth women of the year, who has Riquna Williams – who's notably told her coaches, please don't start me. I prefer to come off the bench. Just the microwave. That's what she is. And to outscore Connecticut over those final two minutes, I mean, she does the little airplane celebration after the shot to put em up 75-71. Just the margins were so close too. Like, JJ has that put back attempt, right, when it's 73-71. And if that goes in, you know, it's a tie game. And instead, Riquna hits a shot on the other end. Just a fantastic last two minutes, even if Connecticut couldn't score. That entire like final stretch where Vegas went to its super small lineup with, you know, A'ja, Jackie, Chelsea, Kelsey, and Riquna. And then you've got Connecticut countering with the jumbo-est of jumbo lineups.
Lindsay: Loved it!
Sabreena: Courtney, DeWanna, the two Joneses, and AT. Like, we just don't get that kind of stylistic variation in other basketball leagues that I watch. But the WNBA just has a little bit of everything. It's so great.
Lindsay: Well, because it does have players that are different sizes, right? I feel like in the NBA, it's to the point now where like, you know, if you're 6’3”, you're a short guy, you know? [laughs]
Sabreena: How many 6’7” players can we get?
Lindsay: But yeah, and I think, I mean, these are two…And the players on these teams, like Kelsey Plum, Jackie Young, Alyssa Thomas, who we…I mean, I don't care. I know they lost, and you know, nobody loves getting accolades and they lost, but she back to back triple doubles in the finals, the first back to back triple doubles in WNBA playoff history, I think maybe the first back to back triple doubles in WNBA history. I’m not…
Sabreena: Mm-hmm, I think it is too. Yeah.
Lindsay: Yeah. Because there haven't been that many. And then to do that in the finals, just absolutely remarkable stuff. So I think it was the toughness and the grit of these two teams and, yeah, these coaches. This is what you love about series. This is why I wish we could get a seven game series in the finals. This is why I'm so glad that we have at least three game series to start out with. It comes down to toughness. It comes down to different players stepping up. You A) have to have your superstars show up every single game and be the best every single game. But you have to have games where Riquna Williams shows up, or Dijonai Carrington for Connecticut. Like, that's just like what it takes.
And then you have the coaching battles, and they're just so fun to watch. But I mean, I wanna talk big picture. Becky Hammon, what do you think it means for her to get this title her first season in the league, after getting passed over by NBA team after NBA team in the interview process? We’ve talked on the show about the ugly rumors that got spread about her in the interview process. And you know, that she just wasn't interviewing well and she definitely wasn't ready and all this stuff. And what are your thoughts on her…
Sabreena: There's so many things that I could say about Becky Hammon. I mean, just like, I don't even know where to begin, but I'm gonna start…So, the Aces came to LA around June of this year, and I've gotten to know Natalie Nakase pretty well from covering the Clippers in the NBA over the last four years. And she was an assistant in LA for a little while, and then joined Becky Hammon on her staff as an assistant this year, a lead assistant, which is, you know, a big step up for her. She'd been interviewing for some head coaching jobs in the W as well, too. But she basically said that like, it's unreal how prepared Becky is for this job. It is insane to me how good she is compared to everyone I've worked with on the men's side. Like, it seems like they're pushing her out of the NBA, like they don't want her there because of how good she is, because there's no reason why someone with her talent level, just with her ability to connect with players, should be denied coaching positions at the highest level possible.
And I'm not saying that the WNBA isn't the highest level possible, but if we treat, you know, the WNBA and NBA as like equivalents, all of those teams should be wanting to hire someone like Becky Hammon. They should be wanting to hire Becky Hammon herself. And the reasons that you heard for why she wasn't getting hired are just so stupid that, like, “Oh, we were concerned that she only had experience as an assistant with one team.” Like every other assistant coach that Gregg Popovich has led to head coaching jobs. “We were concerned that you didn't have any head coaching experience.” Like, that's the point of a first time head coach. Like, we've gone through this several times. And, you know, credit to the Aces for realizing that, you know, they had a good coach. Bill Laimbeer has done pretty incredible things on the WNBA side.
I know we've had…Not you and I specifically, but just like the general WNBA committee has complained about some of the things that he's done with the Aces over the last couple years. But there's no denying that they were a team that was regularly in the conversation for the best team in the league. And to decide that like, hey, we know we're really good, but we could be excellent by adding this one piece in Becky Hammon. And to make that kind of gutsy call, to slow play it with Becky Hammon, you know, retiring her jersey during the regular season, bringing her by Las Vegas so she is forced to talk with mark and Nikki. She openly admits that she was not even considering coaching in the WNBA at that point, but just to be back in the organization that she had played for, to feel that love and support. And they wanted her, they went and got her, and she was everything they could have ever hoped for.
Lindsay: And most importantly, they paid her.
Sabreena: They paid her.
Lindsay: [laughs] They paid her her like over a million dollars!
Sabreena: I'm guessing she had all of the bonuses that were in her contract. [laughs]
Lindsay: I mean, I'm assuming so. You know, she modernized the offense. And I think, you know, Bill Laimbeer, to his credit, I have not been the biggest Bill Laimbeer fan in my time. But he admitted that he was burned out. Like, he said, I've really lost my passion for it. And you could see that. And I think you could see how it impacted the team in the playoffs last year. Like, their game five loss to the Mercury. They had no business not being in the WNBA finals last year. Absolutely no business. But they weren't, they weren't there. And so I think there's a couple of important things here. Number one, Bill Laimbeer being willing to step aside, being willing to bring that in. Not that we're giving the men all the credit, but that's a part of this thing, right?
Sabreena: It's part of it.
Lindsay: Absolutely.
abreena: And I'm glad that Becky shouted out Bill for, you know, building the Las Vegas culture there.
Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. He deserves that. And you know, his passion's undeniable, but you know, it was time for there to be a change. And I think the way Becky was set up for success in a way that in the NBA it is very rare to get a job in any sport, right, to get a head coaching job with a team that is this close to a championship, right? It's very rare. And so I love that for her. And I think this is just gonna be a really good thing. And honestly, the perfect thing. Because no matter where she went in the NBA, she was gonna be set up to fail, and it was probably gonna be horrible. I'm sorry. Like, that's just…I mean, that's the reality of most first time had coaches in the NBA, right? Because you usually are hired because the team's bad, right? And in chaos.
Sabreena: Yep. You rarely get the Steve Kerr situation in Golden State. And now I'm gonna call it the Becky Hammon situation in Las Vegas. Like, just everything is perfectly set up.
Lindsay: Yeah. I just think it's so important that she got that. And all credit to her for making the most of it. I don't wanna call it easy by any means, but I do think it's important to say that she was set up for success and she made the most of it.
Sabreena: Yeah. I've been talking to some coaches about a piece on first time head coaches that's gonna come out as like a capper to this season. And Curt Miller made a real point to say that, like, it's great that we're bringing all of these former players back into the league, into these positions as head coaches, but I just wanna make sure that they're put in positions to do well, because it's really easy to get a situation where the team's not doing well – you know, not a lot of talent, it’s unclear what the direction of the franchise is – and take it out on the coach, right? But for Becky Hammon to have this opportunity, investment in the franchise, investment in the roster. Like, everything that you think of in terms of a model sports franchise really applies to the Las Vegas Aces. And so to get that opportunity, I just hope that other coaches...Not that they would necessarily get to benefit from like this kind of talent level that Becky was set up with.
Lindsay: Four number one picks or whatever they have!
Sabreena: Yeah. The organizational commitment at the very least. [laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah. And I think though we have to say, I think we are seeing more of that. We're seeing less of the Vickie Johnson, Dallas Wings situation, which she's making the most of, you know, I think doing some good things there. Or the Marianne Stanley in Indiana situation is kind of the prime example and more. We saw Noelle Quinn get to take over a championship team in Seattle, and she's done really well there. They haven't won a championship since, but, you know, I think she's been really impressive, and also set up for success in that team. And you saw Tanisha Wright get a great opportunity in Atlanta with a young new team, with an organization that really supports her.
So, really quick, I don't wanna dwell on this too much, but I was legitimately…It’s sad that I was impressed, but I was legitimately impressed and happy that Mark Davis was not at the Raiders game on Sunday, [Sabreena laughs] because like, I just expected him to be. Like, I just…And like, that's where most of his money's coming from. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I just expected him to be…And I think he has shown a lot of passion, a lot of commitment. It was good to see. And I saw that they actually showed the end of the Aces game in the Raiders stadium so that all the Vegas fans could be watching it. And that's really cool.
Sabreena: Yeah. I mean, I think he probably got a lot of flack for missing game one, honestly, last week in Vegas. And following the Raiders to Los Angeles for their opener. But I mean, I give Mark Davis a lot of credit.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Sabreena: Like, he's always supporting the Aces. All the players seem to love him. And just again, we talked about this before, the investment that they've put into that team, like, to pay the coaches just what they deserve, to get a dedicated practice facility for the Aces. Like, all of the time off money they put towards the players during the offseason. Like, that's the standard of how things should be done.
Lindsay: And he was there before he owned a team. I mean, that semifinal series, he was there in 2019. He wasn't the owner yet. He was courtside every game.
Sabreena: “I really like this team.” [laughter]
Lindsay: Yeah! I’m sorry. That's endearing to me. Chelsea Gray, 18.3 points per game, six assist in the finals. I think one of the kind of narratives I loved this season was getting that Seattle Storm versus Aces semifinal series, that being Sue's goodbye, and that really being Chelsea Gray's moment, right? I mean, I think very clearly right now, the best point guard in the league is Chelsea Gray. I think it was a competition at the beginning of the year. I don't think it's a competition anymore. That was cool to get, to see her rise to the moment.
Sabreena: Yeah. Awesome passing of the torch moment in that series. I would've liked to see Chelsea Gray against another player who I consider to be like her main competition for that in the playoffs, Skylar Diggins-Smith. But alas, that was not to be the case in the Vegas-Phoenix series. Always just wishing the best for Skylar.
Lindsay: Well, we'll get into Skylar in a moment. We'll get more into Chelsea Gray when we talk about the Sparks. But this has undeniably been the year of A'ja Wilson: MVP, defensive player of the year, and now she gets her championship. And I think if the WNBA…I hope. I think they might, but I hope they do realize what gold they have in her and promote her as such and treat her as such. And that we see her becoming indisputably the face of USA Basketball and the WNBA. Like, there's zero reason why she should not be. And I mean, I think her and Breanna Stewart are one-two, and I think they might go back and forth as one-two. And how lucky are we to get to see that? Like, that's amazing. But this is A'ja Wilson's time. And Becky Hammon said, I think like she's just 26 now. She's just entering her prime years.
Sabreena: Yeah. Crazy. [laughs]
Lindsay: She’s already got two MVPs.
Sabreena: I think it's really important for the WNBA to market the hell out of A’ja, because we're in this prioritization battle right now, right? And a lot of big stars are talking about, you know, the money that they get from overseas, and how they feel treated playing overseas, and which way they're gonna lean if comes push comes to shove. Like, do I come back early enough to play for the WNBA, or do I finish out my overseas season? And lord knows, I love Breanna Stewart, but she has come out on team overseas a little bit, where she deliberately said that she did not sign a multi-year contract because she wanted to give herself some flexibility in '23 to play overseas and then come back. And she has said that she's not sure when she's gonna return the WNBA because of those deals. And A'ja Wilson, very much team WNBA, right? She played overseas minimally in 2018 for China. She hasn't played there since. Any marketing money the league has to offer players during the offseason, I feel like 90% of it needs to be going to A'ja Wilson. [laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah!
Sabreena: Because she does the best possible job speaking up for her team, for NCAA basketball, for WNBA basketball. Like, she’s everywhere in the US. She plays for Team USA. She was, you know, one of the two best players on Team USA last year, along with Breanna Stewart, however you wanna slice it and dice it. She might be going to the world cup again for Team USA. I would expect her to be going to the world cup, although game one is in three days, so maybe she needs a little rest. [laughs]
Lindsay: Also, if she wants a nap, like, that’s… [laughter]
Sabreena: Just nap on the flight to Australia, I guess. [laughs]
Lindsay: Australia is really far away. [laughs]
Sabreena: But yeah, I think there's a little battle here, right? Like, are we going to set up a USA versus overseas situation for stars to have to choose from? And A'ja's very clearly made her choice. And so that's the kind of person you need to really hone in on just from a business perspective too. Like, this is a player.
Lindsay: That is the best point, one of the best points I've heard. And I mean, we have to say, it’s really important that she's a Black woman and a league that is predominantly Black. And it's so important for the whole market to capitalize on how this is A'ja Wilson's moment. And also like, her personality! She's so outgoing and so interesting. I know that sometimes these MVPs or these, you know, greats are not the best like spokespeople, are not that comfortable showing their personality. Like, there is a struggle sometimes. A’ja Wilson, if anything, has too much personality.
Sabreena: I know. We just had her in game two saying like, yeah, I told Kelsey to get her shit together. [laughs] Like, that's what I have to do. I'm the leader of this team.
Lindsay: It's just incredible.
Sabreena: She has sound bites like that every single time you put a mic in front of her!
Lindsay: Every single time. All right, really quickly, where does Connecticut go
from here?
Sabreena: Oh, Connecticut is just facing such a weird offseason, right? I think Courtney Williams is a free agent. Bri Jones is a free agent. Natisha Hiedeman is a free agent. I don't imagine that Hiedeman’s gonna go anywhere, just because of the Jas Thomas situation.
Lindsay: That is, they're engaged. Yes. If people don't know.
Sabreena: They’re engaged, they're planning a wedding to one another. Like, I imagine they would wanna stay teammates with one another, which, yeah, it's great. Like, if you can get a discount because people are, you know, in love and wanna stay with each other, that's absolutely something you should be taking advantage of as a front office. But I don't know what they're gonna do about Bri Jones, because she is so important to what they're trying to do, right? Like, she's closing games for them in the WNBA finals, sixth woman of the year, two time All Star. You cannot pay her her worth with who you have currently under contract.
Lindsay: So, they have I think Jasmine is still under contract, I believe. And then JJ, Alyssa Thomas, and DeWanna Bonner are all under contract as well.
Sabreena: Right. A really great core of four.
Lindsay: [laughs] Yeah. You don't get a much better core of four than that. And then you have Bri Jones. And I do think though that one problem we've seen since the emergence of Bri Jones – and it's a really good problem to have – but Curt Miller has never been fully comfortable with what to do with the lineups, with Bri Jones, Alyssa Thomas, and JJ all at the same time. I mean, he doesn't go these big lineups, right? Like, I think he kept JJ on the bench too often in this final series, like, there's a weird thing going on between them. I don't know if he doesn't trust her fitness. I don't know what it is.
Sabreena: Sometimes it's the foul trouble too, I think.
Lindsay: Foul trouble. Like, there's a little push and shove there. I don't know what their relationship is, and it seems a little weird. [laughter] But I just can't imagine an MVP likes only playing 25 minutes in final games. That doesn't seem sustainable.
Sabreena: I work with a great beat writer in the LA area, John W. Davis, who just had the gall to ask Curt Miller at the end of the season, like, who do you think your best player is? [laughs] And Curt said something to the effect of like, you know, AT’s toughness and her versatility make her so good to have on any team. And like, JJ can just do anything you want on a basketball court. And like, with that being said, like, sometimes it's really fun to dump the ball into Bri Jones. And all due respect, she should not be in the conversation for the best player on your team with AT and Jonquel Jones.
Lindsay: No.
Sabreena: I love Bri Jones's game. I have a video show on YouTube that is almost entirely an ode to Bri Jones's game for episodes at a time. [laughter]
Lindsay: We will need to link that in the show notes. So, send me that. Yes.
Sabreena: She is not on the level of Alyssa Thomas and Jonquel Jones. And I watch Vegas and A'ja Wilson's playing 40 minutes, right? And Chelsea Gray’s upwards of 38. And like, they put their best players on the court at all times. And yeah, sometimes it sucks for Dearica Hamby and Kiah Stokes and Riquna Williams. But if you're not the best player on the team, that's just the way it goes, right? And the level of fondness that Curt Miller has for Bri Jones makes some very weird lineup decisions on this particular team. And I almost wonder if just taking one of those cards out of the deck would like help Curt Miller just say, okay, Jonquel, you gotta play 36 minutes now. Like, that's all we can do.
Lindsay: And I mean, if you think about it, there were years where like, JJ was out the bubble year, right? She didn't play that year. Last year AT was out all year. And they got the number one overall seed, I believe. And then in the playoffs, AT came back, and Curt Miller didn't know what to do with the lineups last year in the playoffs. I'm sorry, people didn't talk about this enough, but like, AT coming back totally threw them off for that playoff run, as good as they were, and as good as she is. But also I think Curt Miller, at his root, values toughness and kind of traditional basketball, like above all else, which is A) why he loves these Maryland players. [laughter] Like, he and Brenda Frese, this is why they're together. Like, there's a reason why Shakira Austin left Maryland to become a more well rounded player, right? Because she was like, I wanna be more Elena Delle Donne than Alyssa Thomas or Bri Jones, and wasn't gonna get that at Maryland, you know? And so I think with JJ's flexibility, Curt Miller gets confused. If they don't do any crazy trades and you still have Jonquel Jones, Alyssa Thomas, DeWanna Bonner and Jasmine Thomas back, you're gonna be one of the best in the league anyways. You’re gonna be okay.
Sabreena: You’re good. Maybe you just play Nia Clouden at two, you know, next to Jas, instead of Courtney Williams. Dijonai is still there. Like, there's a lot going on. I just hope that we can eliminate this whole Connecticut underachieves in the playoffs narrative that I don't know where that came from. Like, I get that they lost to Chicago as the home team last year. It's one series. Candace Parker was a fricking nightmare in that series. [laughs] Like you just mentioned, Alyssa Thomas came back and completely threw off what they were trying to do rotation wise. They were an underdog to get to the finals this year, an underdog to get to the finals in 2019. They took Vegas to five in the bubble as the seven seed that year. This is a team that does really well in the biggest stages.
Lindsay: No, this is a team. And when you look at a team like Vegas with three number one overall draft picks, and then you look at a team like the Sun and how these teams have been built, right? They have not gotten any draft help, really. You know what I mean? Like, as far as like extra good positioning in the draft.
Sabreena: They had the good sense to draft Chelsea Gray #11 in 2014. [laughs]
Lindsay: That was smart. And to pick JJ. I mean, five teams I think passed on JJ. So they've made really smart decisions, you know, in the GM roles, in the draft, in player development, in building their system. They shouldn't actually be this good, and they are, and that's what's impressive. But at the end of the day, I don't know if you win a WNBA championship without an A'ja Wilson, without a Candace Parker, without an Elena Delle Donne. And Jonquel Jones was not that caliber player in the series. And it's because I think of these rotational issues.
Sabreena: Yeah. I'm not even sure if it was just the rotational issues. There are times when like you watch her go to the ball and you watch A'ja Wilson go to the ball, and there's a difference. I don't know that that's like because Bri Jones is getting more of JJ’s minutes or just because that's who JJ is. And it’s not a disservice to say that Jonquel Jones didn't have the force that A'ja Wilson did. A'ja Wilson is a freaking generational talent. Like, we just listed all of her accolades this season earlier. She’s 26 years old. She's probably the best player on the planet. To not be on her level is not saying that you're not a great player. It's just, I mean, when was the last time a WNBA team won a title without a number one pick? I can't think of any.
Lindsay: No. And I mean, I'm sure somebody's gonna be in our mentions like immediately, and that's gonna be the most annoying thing in the world. [laughter] Well, I think the Mystics, Elena Delle Donne's not technically a number one pick, so. [laughs]
Sabreena: Okay. Got it, yeah. That’s a great point. [laughs] Just figured it out.
Lindsay: Okay. You all can shut up now. I did it. [laughs]
Sabreena: I'm glad we got that out of the way immediately.
Lindsay: Yeah, I am too. You've mentioned prioritization. I wanna get into that. Can you explain to people what prioritization is?
Sabreena: First of all, a tremendously difficult word to say. [laughter]
Lindsay: It's so catchy. [laughter]
Sabreena: I have a hard time with it. So, WNBA spent all of the 2020 offseason touting how many great things they had done for players in the new collective bargaining agreement, all of the sacrifices that their owners had taken on to increase compensation, to increase all of these benefits that players were gonna get. And they conveniently neglected to mention one detail that also existed in the collective bargaining agreement, which was that starting in 2023, players would be fined for not reporting to camp on time. And this has always been a fact of the matter in the WNBA, because players play overseas when they're not in the WNBA season. And sometimes those seasons run a little late because of Euro League. And so they come back like a couple games into the year. I mean, I was in LA this year when Kayla McBride came back like straight from Turkey and immediately showed up to play in Los Angeles, like after having played in Turkey two nights before that. So it's just a fact of the matter, but WNBA owners were like, hey, if we are going to be paying our players more money, we should get something back as well. And so the thing that they got back was a guarantee that players would be reporting to camp on time or else they'd be fined.
Lindsay: So in 2023, it's you have to be there by the first day of the season, not camp.
Sabreena: Right. And then in 2024 it's camp. Yeah. And it doesn't apply to players with only two years of experience or less because they wanna make sure that players who are still on the rookie scale of their contract have the opportunity to get more money overseas. This is mostly for vets.
Lindsay: Yeah. Or that you can maybe attract overseas players to like encourage them to try, like a Marine Johannes, like you know, like maybe one year.
Sabreena: Exactly. Yeah.
Lindsay: But players, like you said, like Breanna Stewart’s already said, she doesn't know what this is gonna do for her. While she's made a lot of money in Russia, obviously Russia is not on the board right now.
Sabreena: Yeah. But she's playing for a supremely great team in Turkey this year, Fenerbahçe, which is going to be paying her like high six figures, I would imagine. That’s a lot more than the 230 that she's making in Seattle.
Lindsay: Her wife is from Spain. Like, I think she likes spending time over in Europe as well. Like, that's become a part of her lifestyle, I would imagine. They have a child.
Sabreena: Yeah. It’s a second home for them.
Lindsay: Yeah. Like, I think that it's just kind of built into the equation. Jonquel Jones has said the same thing, you know, for Jonquel Jones, she doesn't get the endorsements, you know, because she wasn't this well known college athlete, and she's, you know, not on Team USA, she's from The Bahamas, you know, all these reasons. And the way that the media and marketing treats just, you know, Black women superstars. But she says, like, she told the great Katie Barnes in a piece, like, the only way for me to maximize my money, it's not endorsements – it's overseas.
Sabreena: And I think it's an incredible marketing flex by the WNBA, honestly, like, the best marketing they've ever done that I thought I knew everything about the new collective marketing agreement in 2020 when all of those details came out. And then I was listening to an episode of Tea with A & Phee, and Arike was on it talking about prioritization. And I was like, wait, what is that? How did they sneak that one through? [laughs]
Lindsay: I always say that I think it's a good problem how quickly the 2020 WNBA CBA went from looking revolutionary to being out of date. And it happened very quickly. I think that's ultimately gonna be good news for their next agreement. But I also think it's really easy to shit on it now, right? But knowing how hard these players had to fight these owners, it just says a lot about how little the owners were actually willing to give and how creative they had to get to get anything from the owners. And on the owner's standpoint, their point is, you know…I mean, first of all, part of it's like, I'm sick of playing players who aren't here with a team. Like, it really hurts the team when they're not here, which I understand.
Sabreena: Totally.
Lindsay: And also like, they're overseas, we can't market them when they can't be a part of the community, right? So we wanna try and pay them more money. But ultimately this contract didn't get them to the financial standpoint where they can justify those points. Now, we've got a TV deal on the horizon in a couple years, I think in like three years. We’ll be in a much better place. And then maybe this was a contract too soon for prioritization. And I hope some people will realize that [laughs] and make some changes. But I think it's gonna be messy.
Sabreena: Yeah. It's gonna be messy. I mean, we just had this epic Las Vegas-Seattle semifinal series, and I don't wanna, you know, downplay the finals we just had. But like, I think if we were to pick a best series of the playoffs, it was Vegas-Seattle. And you'd think that the WNBA would love to just capitalize on this momentum of, hey, A'ja versus Stewie for years and years to come. And that really hits a snag if Stewie is just away in Turkey all offseason with, you know, no one talking to her, and then doesn't show up in 2023 to play. [laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah, it's not ideal. So that's something we're gonna be keeping an eye on. Are we gonna see any adjustments to it? I do think this season might not be as big of a deal, because I think the WNBA season...There’s no world championships next year. WNBA will start a little bit later. I think there's a chance that we can get the European seasons done not by training camp, but by day one, by the start of the regular season. So I expect to see a lot of one year contracts being signed by stars. I think it's gonna really be a problem. The training can't think is gonna be the biggest.
Sabreena: You can just expect like every WNBA executive is just gonna be rooting for all of those Euro league series to be over as quick as possible to sweep, sweep, sweep. [laughs]
Lindsay: Oh my gosh. Yes. So, I just wanna go over quickly, like, what free agents are we on the lookout for? Obviously we mentioned Breanna Stewart already, who's of course been with the Seattle Storm her whole career. Last offseason she very famously was courted by Brooklyn?
Sabreena: The New York Liberty. Yes.
Lindsay: The New York Liberty. Yes. In Brooklyn. And you know, she's an east coast girl and got the Connecticut connection, and I think there's a lot that appeals to her. Even with Sue gone, you're always gonna be in Sue’s shadow in Seattle. And I think what they're trying to build with the New York Liberty is really exciting right now. She might wanna join that. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if she stayed with the Storm either. And she actually mentioned this season that seeing how beloved Sue was, and it was her staying there, right? It was the relationship that she built with the fans. And I think that also is gonna factor in too, right? Because she saw how special that was. And Seattle is run really well.
Sabreena: Yeah. Great organization too.
Lindsay: They don't have the money of the Tsais, but it's a class organization all the way. I think Candace Parker, we don't know – are you gonna retire, or are you gonna be back in Chicago? We have no idea. We have no idea what's going on with Diana Taurasi either. Tina Charles is forever a question mark. [laughter] I think Emma Meesseman's also a free agent.
Sabreena: Emma’s a free agent, yes.
Lindsay: With Chicago.
Sabreena: So is Courtney Vandersloot. So is Allie Quigley. Azurá Stevens.
Lindsay: Right! Yes. Okay. So, Chicago, tons of question marks. The two good teams with the biggest question marks are the Storm and the Sky. Also the Mercury though, because this season…I mean, hope to god by the end of the year Brittney Griner is home. Joe Biden has just met with Cherelle Griner. There are ongoing negotiations. But as we've said on this podcast multiple times, Russia is not a rational actor. This is not someone you can just like yell at until they do exactly what you say. And we have no idea. It's very unpredictable. But hope to god Brittney is back and where she belongs and healthy and cared for by this time next year. But we don't know. Skylar Diggins-Smith, it seems like there's no way she comes back to the Mercury, but she is under contract. We have no idea. [Sabreena laughs] So there's just a lot of moving pieces, a lot of huge, huge names that are gonna be on the free agent list.
And I wanna finish this by saying another one of those names is Nneka Ogwumike, [laughs] is a free agent. And I think we've talked and focused on the good teams, you know, the kind of elite teams, because it's the playoffs. That's what's on our mind. Like, I’ll admit, the non-playoff teams are far from my mind. But you cover the Sparks. First of all, how does it feel to see…You saw Candace Parker–
Sabreena: I'm gonna stop you right there, Lindsay, I'm gonna stop you right there. [Lindsay laughs] You know my answer to that question
Lindsay: No, I don't. I don’t!
Sabreena: I have been petty tweeting all playoffs, all 2021, all of 2022. [laughs] It's not great. It's not great.
Lindsay: So, the Sparks lose Derek Fisher and Candace Parker. Derek Fisher benches Candace Parker, famously, a few years ago in the playoffs. If you wonder how that went over – not great. And she goes to Chicago, wins a championship. They then lose Chelsea Gray, who goes, and now finals MVP.
Sabreena: Same offseason they lost Candace and Chelsea, actually.
Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
Sabreena: That was a tough one. That was tough one.
Lindsay: They did get rid of Derek Fisher finally earlier this season, although it just kind of left more turmoil. They still have not named a GM. I think I read that the only two players they have returning on contract are like Chennedy Carter and Katie Lou Samuelson. [laughs]
Sabreena: They've got some more rookies, like Jasmine Walker is still there. Rae Burrell, Olivia Nelson-Ododa, you know.
Lindsay: I am reading that only two “key players” under contract was the– [laughs]
Sabreena: Ah. See, I thought Olivia was pretty good. [laughs]
Lindsay: Okay. Okay. Well, I think yell at ESPN, because I think I got this from them.
Sabreena: Yeah, it's the Connecticut industrial complex. Come on. Show some love for Olivia Nelson-Ododa.
Lindsay: And I think Chennedy Carter, I've got question marks about. Like, what is next for them? They don’t have a coach, don’t have a GM.
Sabreena: I'm not even sure they have anybody in the front office. Their assistant GM resigned before the start of the season. So it was just Derek Fisher as the GM. And when your GM is out and there's no assistant GM to replace him, like, I mean, I assume the WNBA front office is more than two people involved, but like, other than Kari Korver, who just sort of comes around and, as I can tell, like gives coffee to the players before the started the game. Like, I don't know who's really working there. It's a bare bones operation in Los Angeles right now. [laughs] And I don't know where they go from here. I'm just terribly worried that they're gonna make another splashy former LA professional player hire with their head coach. Lisa Leslie is the name that keeps coming to mind. But I mean, I feel like this is even beneath her. This is…What is happening with the Sparks right now?
I think about the 2021 offseason all the time, because, you know, as you just mentioned, it's when they lost Candace, it’s when they lost Chelsea, it’s when they also lost Riquna Williams – which wasn't a big deal at the time, because there was an understanding that the Sparks were going through this rebuild and you can't really pay Riquna Williams like her worth to play for a sub 500 team. But, you know, sure was fun watching her score those eight points in the final two minutes today. [laughs] But like, I think about if they had just cored Chelsea Gray instead of Nneka Ogwumike. Chelsea Gray was a restricted free agent the year before. She took a meeting with Las Vegas. It was very clear that she wanted to go to Las Vegas. Like, you gotta just hold on to that flare if you know that her intentions are to go elsewhere.
And like, I have mixed feelings about the idea of being able to control players like that in free agency, but when the tool is available to you, you probably should go for it, because it just never seemed like Nneka was going to leave. And even now, through everything that has happened this year, with the firing of their head coach and GM, and the Liz Cambage situation, like, the fact that they brought her in, after all of the terrible things that she said at a Team Nigeria practice, which Nneka’s sister played for. She has still said, like, this is my home. This is Los Angeles. I wanna be part of building the next thing. I assume Chiney follows Nneka wherever she goes. So, I just think they made the wrong decision picking Nneka over Chelsea. Clearly two years later, they still haven't figured out how to replace the talent that they lost that year.
I mean, is Kristi Toliver gonna retire? She's also at the end of her contract. I don't know if we've seen the last of her in the WNBA. I've just been pounding the horn of have Kristi Toliver coach the Sparks, because somebody's gotta do it. [laughs] And clearly she has excellent coaching experience, you know, at the NBA level. If it seems like I'm just sort of talking into nothing, it's because I don't think the Sparks have a plan. I don't know what the hope is going forward. They don't even have their pick this year, because they traded it for Chennedy Carter.
Lindsay: Oh, right. The Mystics have it. [laughs]
Sabreena: The Mystics have it, yeah.
Lindsay: The Mystics get a lottery pick, which is just really cool. [laughs] As somebody who loves the Mystics, that was a really smart move by Coach Thibault. Yeah.
Sabreena: That's a great trade. Yeah.
Lindsay: And Chennedy Carter didn’t play most of the year. It's not really sure what's going on with Chennedy Carter. Nobody ever seems to know. Of course, a lot of talent there. But who is the ownership group? Like, what do we know about the ownership group?
Sabreena: So, this is where I get really mad about the Sparks, because they are owned by the same ownership group as the Los Angeles Dodgers. And the Los Angeles Dodgers, for those of you who follow baseball at all, are a fantastically well run organization. They just throw so much money into their team. They use all of the best resources they have, like, for analytics, and just everything that you could possibly do to make a team well run. Like, all the things we talk about with the Aces, that is what the Los Angeles Dodgers do. So, money, not an issue for this ownership group of the Los Angeles Sparks. A rounding error for what they're paying Freddie Freeman could fund the entire Sparks operation for the next five years. So, for them to act like a cheapo franchise by not really hiring a full front office, by practicing at just this hellacious gym in Torrance, like not even close to where they play their games at Crypto.com Arena. They just behave like an organization that has no money, even though clearly the resources should be available to them, and it confuses me to no avail.
Lindsay: Isn't like Magic Johnson part of that group? Yeah.
Sabreena: Yeah, he is. He was part of the group that bought the Dodgers. He was just sort of like a, you know, public face that holds a very small percentage of the Dodgers, but they made him a bigger prominent entity of the Los Angeles Sparks group because obviously him and basketball go hand in hand. And when the Sparks won the title in 2016, the trophy was presented to him on behalf of the ownership.
Lindsay: One of the ESPN moments I bring up all the time is it was after a game against the Lynx in the finals, and it was in Minnesota, but they were showing Magic Johnson on the courtside seats, you know, watching the Sparks. And when they cut, I think it was Scott Van Pelt who I usually like, but Scott Van Pelt, he was like, how cool that Magic Johnson is a fan of this team! [Sabreena laughs] I was like, he's the owner of the team!
Sabreena: Yeah. I have not seen him in the last three years of covering the team. So, I don't know what happened there. I mean, I know he obviously stepped back on some of his Lakers duties, but theoretically he's still as involved as ever. He's not like the managing partner of the Sparks. That is a man named Eric Holoman who actually had to issue all of the press releases at the end of the year, because there was no general manager to issue them on behalf of. But I'm unclear as to who operates anything day to day for the Sparks, unclear what the direction is. They just have to nail this GM hire first. And unfortunately, like, because the WNBA is such a small league, it's hard for me to tell who the talent is that they should be trying to poach. Like, I just keep thinking how much money could they throw out at Dan Padover to just come to LA and rebuild this like he did in Atlanta. [laughs] But who knows.
Lindsay: Even though they play at crypto.com–
Sabreena: They're not associated with the Lakers.
Lindsay: Which, that's weird.
Sabreena: Yeah. They have the same colors, you know, they consider themselves to be like the sister franchise to the Lakers, but the Lakers ownership sold them a very long time ago and…
Lindsay: Right. Right in the middle of the CBA thing, which, if we talked to the people in the union, that was a fun time. [laughs]
Sabreena: Hey, considering how the Lakers are run, maybe it's not the worst thing in the world that they're not under the Lakers ownership. But the problem is, because they look like the Lakers, I don't think Steve Ballmer would ever buy them. But I mean, again, the money is not an issue. Like, the Guggenheim group that owns the Los Angeles Dodgers is raking it in, and should be able to put the money necessary into the Los Angeles Sparks. I don't know why they haven’t, and it makes it harder for me to enjoy the Dodgers, honestly, knowing that they have this part of their business that they're just completely not attending to.
Lindsay: Well, I now hate the Dodgers as well. So thank you for that. The battle going forward in the WNBA, it's not just the prioritization. It's not just these free agents. It is owners who care versus owners who don't give a shit. And we've seen that battle wage it's way through. We've got these new, big spending owners coming in, who, like Mark Davis, who just are like, blow it all up. Like, why can't I do anything I want? [laughter] Like, why do I have to follow any rules?
Sabreena: It's the one time where like the unearned white male confidence really works in our favor. [laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah. And then you have that clashing with people who have really been there building it up from the start, but who do care and do wanna invest more, but wanna do it in a more responsible, equitable way, because they're not billionaires. And then you have these groups. And I think, you know, I really got mad…And this will be our topic for the Thursday episode, which is all the Robert Sarver things that we're talking about, who of course is the Sun and Mercury owner. And of course, one of things that made me so mad was he was like, “I can't be a sexist, I own the Mercury.” But one of the things is, like, I remember is like Ted Leonsis saying – of course, the owner of the Washington Wizards and the Washington Mystics, and doesn't need to be anyone's favorite guy. But I remember him telling me, “I am the only NBA owner who comes to WNBA owner meetings.”
Sabreena: Sarver doesn’t. Indiana doesn’t. Minnesota.
Lindsay: Minnesota. And then at the time, whatever New York counterpart. This was when the Tsais were new when he talked to me, so I'm not quite sure how that's changed. They certainly seem involved. And there's one other that I'm forgetting about, but anyways. These are the battles. This is the next frontier, and it's gonna be really interesting to see where we go. And I think LA being one of the founding franchises, being one of the marquee franchises, being one of the most successful franchises, it’s devastating. And if this was an NBA team, if this was any other kind of team, there would be autopsy after autopsy of like what went wrong.
Sabreena: Like we had with the Clippers when they were owned by the previous owner, Steve Ballmer. Definitely a thing.
Lindsay: Yeah. And so I've learned more talking to you about their ownership group than I have in the past few years following them from afar. So, I think hopefully this is a conversation that can continue. Sabreena, where can people find your work and follow your work?
Sabreena: Yeah. I write for SB Nation where I cover the WNBA and all of women's basketball at swishappeal.com. And I host a YouTube show called The Step Through which we alluded to earlier.
Lindsay: And will you be doing college?
Sabreena: I think I'll be doing some more NBA stuff, but I'll pop in every so often for WNBA offseason things at the very least.
Lindsay: Cool. I'm so glad we could finally get you on Burn It All Down. This was an absolute treat.
Sabreena: Thank you so much.
Lindsay: All right. Thank you all so much for listening to this week's episode of Burn It All Down. This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. You can follow Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe and rate the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play and TuneIn. Links and transcripts are on our website, burnitalldownpod.com. And you'll find a link to our merch at our Bonfire store. If you wanna become a sustaining donor, patreon.com/burnitalldown is the place to go. Burn on, and not out.