Interview: Madison Hammond and Tziarra King on their rookie seasons in the NWSL
NWSL rookies, Madison Hammond and Tziarra King, talk with Amira about playing their first season of professional soccer in the midst of a global pandemic and their experiences as Black women and, for Hammond, as the first Native American woman to play in the league.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist.
Transcript
Amira: Hey flamethrowers, Amira here, and I am so pleased today to join forces and chat with two NWSL rookies who are breaking barriers, breaking ankles, taking names. So it’s my pleasure to welcome back to the show Tziarra King, forward for Utah Royals. Zee was on in early June when we did our Black Women Athletes Speak Out episode, so check that out if you haven’t. And welcome for the first time to the show, to the pod, Madison Hammond, who is a defender for the OL Reign. Thank y’all for joining me.
Tziarra: Yeah, thank you for having us.
Madison: Thank you for having us.
Amira: Oh, I’m hype. I’ve been very hype. So, I mean, what a year to be a rookie! [laughs]
Madison: Literally.
Tziarra: To say the least! [laughs]
Amira: It’s wild. It’s wild. But I wanna start with a little bit about that, about what it’s kind of been like. Madison, what has it been like? If you guys have been under a rock, one of the big things that happened last week is that Madison became the first Native American to sign a professional contract with the NWSL, which is a barrier that shouldn’t have to be broken, but we’re still here in the year of the firsts. So all of a sudden you’re a rookie, you’re breaking barriers, and then you have Billie Jean King and Gabbie Union and everybody, you know, taking notice. What does it mean to you to have that kind of be your entry into your professional career?
Madison: Yeah, for me it was, you know, I signed my contract back in June before the Challenge Cup and, Challenge Cup, I didn’t get into any games, which was fine. I was just learning and I was happy to just be there. But I think just the past couple of weeks, you know…I made my debut this past weekend and got in against Portland a couple of nights ago and then just having people come to you and be, like, “What’s it like to be the first?” I never thought I was gonna be the first anything in sports, you know? You hear like stats of, “They’re the first person to do xyz” and you’re like, wow, they’re so cool! So for someone to finally…It was a couple weeks ago I did an interview with Men In Blazers and the whole interview was like, “What’s it like to be the first Native American in the NWSL?” It’s kind of very humbling, but it’s also just really inspiring to see how many people have taken notice and see that as just positive representation. For me it's a little bit of pressure but it’s also good pressure and it keeps me grounded but it also gives me a purpose outside of just me and just sport. I think sport is great to tell bigger stories than just yourself. So for me it’s just been taking it all in
Amira: That’s absolutely right, and I wanna take a step back because going back to what a kind of wild year it’s been, it was a little…The transition has not been as seamless as you thought your professional careers would start like. We talked about this a little bit, or Lindsay talked to you about this, Zee, talking about what it was like to move to Utah in a pandemic. What has been the most challenging aspect of being rookies in the time of COVID?
Tziarra: I think besides the fact of having multiple preseasons in one year…
Madison: Terrible.
Tziarra: Yeah. It’s been rough. But just having to come out here and go home and come back and then go home, just like…You don’t really get to build that comfort and that routine. It was very much stop and start and that was pretty difficult in terms of trying to really get grounded and be comfortable and get into a zone. That was definitely probably one of the most challenging parts of this year. When we got sent home the people on contract had to go home for a few months. It was like, trying to train on your own, trying to stay in shape, am I doing enough, what is everybody else going? It was very much like just nothing but time to think about what was going on. It was definitely difficult.
Madison: For me it’s a little bit different. I was not drafted in the formal draft earlier this year so I, when I first went into preseason, was not on contract. So being home in COVID times I didn’t know if I was gonna get invited back for whatever reason or if we were even gonna have a season, and then all of a sudden, like Zee said, you’re training by yourself, kicking against a wall…You know it’s not ideal, but you still need it to be enough to keep you in shape and all of that. Then one day I get a call and it's like, “We need you here in Seattle tomorrow.” It’s like, okay, well, let me just readjust everything that’s going on in my life! You’re trying to chase your dreams so of course you’re gonna do whatever it takes. But at the same time, people who have been in the league and understand what the league looks like, for them this was a huge adjustment, but for rookies who have no idea what anything is like, I think it just made the learning curve much steeper. But I do take a positive out of it in that I hope we’ll be ready for anything at this point, but yeah, even coming back for a third preseason is just like, alright, here we go again!
Tziarra: Exactly.
Amira: So, you know, you’re also coming into a league that has been outspoken on issues of pay equity, that has been finding their voice in other areas, but you come into the league as Black women, as a Native woman, in the midst also of ongoing conversations about anti-Blackness, about white supremacy, in the wake of continuous murders. Even though you’re rookies you’ve been in a position where there’s a spotlight. Zee, you especially have been very vocal while dealing with some BS out there in Utah–
Tziarra: Yeah.
Amira: –and, in my opinion, one of the most vocal leading the charge to say, actually, get this out of our league!
Tziarra: Right.
Amira: I was wondering what that kind of tension…I mean, it’s not so much a tension because you’re embodying it, coming into the league as rookie and then also emerging as a leader and speaking up and saying, hey, this can’t stand in our league, this can’t stand in our sport. And kind of blazing a new trail for advocacy and speaking up about social justice looks like, is a position that I won’t say you’ve found yourself in, but I think that you’ve also stepped into.
Tziarra: Right.
Amira: So, what has that been like this summer? This long summer.
Tziarra: Yeah. Definitely. You know, I think it’s kind of funny because I feel like I can’t not talk about this without relating it back to my childhood. I’m the youngest, I’m the only girl, so I feel like just from growing up I’ve always been like, okay, we’re not doing it like this, we’re doing it my way! [laughs] And you’re gonna listen to me. That's just kind of how I’ve always been. Then coming into this rookie season and just seeing all this go down, it’s just been like…I’ve never really had an issue with standing up for the things that I believe in. It’s been difficult in terms of, like, “Should I do this?” – obviously I’m new, not everybody knows me. Should I say these things? But then I was thinking about it like this will not only affect me but this will affect so many people after me, and so it only feels right to stand up for things to then, like you said, blaze a path for Black women to come after this.
Amira: Absolutely. I think that you have leagues like the WNBA who have historically been outspoken. But soccer, especially because of the pay for play system in youth soccer, it’s really intense now!
Tziarra: Right.
Amira: It has created some disparities. So they’re lagging behind in terms of representation that we might see in other sports.
Madison: Definitely.
Amira: And Madison, in particular, I think that people really don’t understand, they don’t work with a lot of visibility with Native women. I think that Jordan Daniel and Rosalie Fish as runners, as cross country runners, have kind of increased visibility, particularly raising awareness for Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women. What is it like to be, you know, multi-racial, and to be in this position, but also to kind of be just embodying and by your very presence compelling people to rethink what they understand about what it means to be Native?
Madison: For me I think that all of this happening this year is like a compounded amount of things to think about and be concerned about in that obviously with a resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement this year really called me back to using my voice just to not stand for certain things and people that I’m close to really recognizing that I’m not going to stand for certain things anymore. I think that for a long time I kind of had to just endure those kind of spaces, and because of that I don’t think I have been as vocal as I would like to be. I just feel like this year has been a really good time to talk to people like Zee and have conversations and just be like, “This is wack!” and also being able to really use the voice that I know I have to advocate for all parts of me, in that I wanna be involved in all conversations about being Black and what it means to be Black and that there are so many different ways of being Black and people need to understand that.
But also doing the due diligence to all of me, in that I was raised by a Native American woman, a single mom, and so I owe a lot of that to my identity and I feel like the fact that people like Billie Jean King and Gabrielle Union are tweeting about that, it doesn’t…It’s sad, but unfortunately you have to wait for people with certain platforms, even your own platform, to validate that in a way so that you’re seen in certain spaces. Otherwise you’re just invisible. My whole life it’s not that I’ve been invisible but nobody’s ever seen me as a Native American woman, so I think just all of it happening this year, I don’t think it could’ve happened at a more perfect time. Everybody’s talking about it, it’s a trendy thing to talk about race right now. For good or for bad I think that it brings out authentic things in people and it makes people wanna actually question and challenge, and so that’s all I can ask for is that you just challenge the way that you thing and whatever pictures and notions that you have of Black people, Black women, Native American women. Can that get a little bit better, even a little bit, by what I represent and what you see in me. So for me that’s just kind of like…All of that, on top of trying to play good soccer. [laughs]
Amira: Right. Absolutely. I wonder, you know, sometimes when I talk to Black women in predominantly white sports they talk about all the love they have for their teammates, and also there’s a part of them that’s like, how do I juggle white teammates in this moment, right? I also say, are your shoulders heavy? You’re doing a lot of lifting. What does it look like for all of us in spaces, whether it’s in newsrooms and, for me, in the academy, it’s like this: I talk myself into work, you know? If I talk myself into it by advocating, by doing it, next thing I know I’m on like 15 million committees, right? [Tziarra laughs] And in a position where it’s like, “We want to learn!” and I’m like, okay…Read a book! So I’ve seen this in multiple workplaces. Are you finding moments this year that have created a weight on your shoulders? Are you doing lifting? Do you see your teammates, do you see the league itself kind of rising to the standards you’re setting?
Tziarra: You know, I think, definitely that’s something that we have to carry as Black women always. I think particularly at this club it’s been difficult because for a good amount of time the only Black people in the organization were the players, and so when you don't have Black women, Black men in those spaces higher up, everything always falls back down to us. It's like, “What do you guys think of this? What do you guys think of this?” as opposed to, you know, bouncing it off us, instead of all of it depending on us. So I think there’s been a lot of times I’ve wished that if you diversify these spaces it’ll be a lot easier for these questions to be answered and things like that. So that’s definitely been one thing that's been difficult at our club. In terms of the league, I think that there’s definitely a lot of room for improvement. I think that with the Black Players Collective that has come about I think that what Midge and Crystal and all of them are doing to make a voice for us is absolutely amazing. It definitely has changed the game in so many ways for us – to bounce ideas, to have a sense of community and a safe space to just talk about how we feel. I think it's really important actually for some of the teams that only have like one Black player, to have a voice and to have people backing them up in these issues. But yeah, it’s definitely ben some lifting, for sure.
Madison: Yeah, I mean, I would agree that we’ve had to do some lifting. I mean, I think that I’m very fortunate in that the club environment here is very conducive to allow us to voice our opinions and give our thoughts, but Zee, like you’re saying, I feel like from top-down while we may not have the racial representation they are still willing to not necessarily be coming to us with the questions and asking us for the solutions but more so saying, like, “Hey, we wanna do this, this and this. What are your thoughts? What do you think we should ex, what do you think we should do?” I can honestly say that I think that the conversations that we have as a team…While everyone might not agree, everyone has come to an understanding this year and everyone is on the same page and everyone is actually in support of the movement and of each other, because we’ve done the work.
I’m just really proud of that because Zee’s an example of what happens when you don't get that. You can't take it for granted. So I’m just really fortunate to have that opportunity and have that space, but at the same time it then makes me wanna take what we have and just spread it to everyone else because having the Black Players Collective, like Zee said, being able to have other people who have similar feelings…We might not all agree on everything either but at least there’s a space for us to create a unified voice, because I didn't realize – and that's probably my own naive whatever-ness – you get to the league and you realize just how few Black and brown girls there are in the league. It’s like, whoa. Then you get asked the question of, like, “Why aren’t Black and brown girls playing soccer?” and it’s like, they ARE playing soccer, they ARE playing soccer. Please, repeat with me! They ARE playing soccer. But as you get older, you know, those disparities, the financial disparities, you know, they start taking over and they weigh people down and then by the time you're at the highest level you don’t have representation anymore. So I think that that’s something else that needs to be addressed from the root problems of youth soccer and things like that.
Amira: Absolutely. We talk about part of this is not a magic wand that any one team or league is going to solve, like, how do you recruit? How do you consider the capacity for excellence of Black and brown girls? If you’re seeing a girl who's fast and you’re like, “Great, you have to play track, or basketball…” then that’s another reason you’re gonna end up with a disparity. If you look at a Black girl and you’re like, “Oh my goodness, you could play anywhere on the field and so we’re gonna Crystal Dunn you,” and then FIFA’s gonna disrespect her in the ratings because she’s actually the best all-around player, like, I think you have those moments where there are small things that have been embedded within the culture of soccer. I think about that, thinking about Olympic years, World Cup years, and my friends who don’t watch sports will be like, “Wow, why is it that like every other team, like the Netherlands, France – why do they have Black girls everywhere?” like, that disparity becomes really stark on the world level! I’m like, well, colonialism, but also… [laughter] So, thinking about that next cycle, that next time it’s happening, what are your dreams? Where do you want both global football for women but also the NWSL to be? Just the kind of soccer community in this country, if your representation is going to make an impact. What is your vision for the future of soccer?
Tziarra: I think a big thing for me is to have more representation, like I was saying, in the front office spaces, in the head coaching positions, because I feel like right now it’s white men. The stats that came out the other day from…
Amira: Brenda and Jermaine, yeah, Fare.
Tziarra: Yes, exactly! The Fare information was like, the lack of diversity in these spaces is unreal. So I think that allowing not only more space for players to develop and get to the next level and dismantling that whole pay to play system will then create the opportunity – more development, more learning, and the ability to get into these higher spaces. But also it comes from the people that are there, like, are you hiring fairly? Are you genuinely looking for diversity and not just using it as a buzzword? So for me that’s definitely a big things that I think will be very empowering to see in the next five years.
Madison: Yeah, I think for me I want soccer to look…I want it to just look like the best players are having opportunities to continue playing, and that’s not to say that one race has better players than others, nothing like that, but just more so that when a woman of color wants to play soccer it’s not an anomaly, it’s just the norm. So for more and more people to continue playing soccer they just need to continue having access. I don't even know if that can be solved in five years, it’s almost like a generational thing, but it’s more just like having more diverse, different faces in the league. Not even just in our league but in leagues around the world, and people being able to go abroad. I think a lot of that will change with pay equity and things like that, but that's a whole different topic. But I think creating more normalcy in things that are normal, you know, it’s normal for Black and brown girls to play soccer. So just seeing that on a more consistent basis is just what I think is the next goal.
Amira: I mean, that pay equity issue is actually bound up in it, right?
Tziarra: Absolutely.
Amira: You know, it's very hard if you’re like…If I play an individual sport like track, I play an Olympic sport, there’s pathways to monetization there that have been laid out, that sometimes make it an easier choice – or even the WNBA, at this point. Pay equity is a key part of that. Also, taking that energy that is spent on pay equity, you have women’s soccer in this country that’s been at the forefront of conversations around pay equity, so it’s also about being able to say, “Hey, take that same energy to other parts of us.” Because for as vocal as people are on pay equity, don’t go mute on issues of racial and other forms of social justice, because it's all bound up together. So I think that's absolutely an essential point. I’ll end by saying: what has been the most joyous? What has been the best part of this very unusual rookie season?
Tziarra: You can go first, Hamm. [laughs]
Madison: I don’t know…I think for me it’s just been having the opportunity to learn from literally the best players in the world and every day work is fun, like, I get up and I gotta go to work, but work is pretty good! So at the end of the day it's nice that with everything else going on in such an exhausting year, this decade of a year, at least we have soccer. Unfortunately it is really sucky for me, in my opinion, that there's so many other things going on and it’s all wrapped up in our head and we still have to perform, but being able to put a lot of things aside and just focus on the game has really pulled me through this year, for sure.
Tziarra: Yeah. I’ve got two. I think one thing that's kind of been a positive is getting the chance to get games and get that experience in a lower pressure environment. Obviously with Challenge Cup and Fall Series it’s not a full season so it's literally like, okay…Especially now with Fall Series, it’s like these games don’t really count for much–
Amira: Oh my gosh, don’t get me started on that. When I found out that that doesn’t even count towards…Ugh.
Tziarra: Yeah, I know. It’s sad. BUT I can still work on that game fitness, get that improvement, understand what it's like to play in front of a crowd and against some of the best players in the league. So I think for me that’s been a real positive of this year. Then also just the sense of community that I felt from so many people, like, it’s unreal. Especially the Black women in this league, the fans, reporters, so many different people have just really shown up to support, and that definitely has meant a lot in all this wild craziness.
Amira: I’m so proud of you all, and it’s so great to be able to say, look, there’s a Native woman! Look at these Black women! Look at Zee out here saying, hey, why is your little silhouette of women always have ponytails? [laughter] All of these things are pushing barriers and pushing through boxes that people wanna put women athletes in. They’re pushing it tremendously. So I hope that y’all stay well, stay healthy, keep grinding. Take care! Self care is important. I hope y’all are binging some good TV…Or trash TV, whatever. [laughter] As long as you're relaxing in some way. We appreciate you taking the time to come on Burn It All Down, you know we are always cheering for you. You can check out upcoming games on October 17th – they will be playing each other when the Royals take on the Reign at 8pm. That is certainly not a game to miss. None of these games are games to miss, if we’re being honest! And now you have even more ways of watching them, so check you times, check your listings, check it out and keep supporting. We’ll keep supporting y’all. Hope that load is not as heavy as it has been, but I do thank you for carrying it. Take care.
Madison: Thank you so much.
Tziarra: Thank you so much.