Episode 234: Live from the Independent Supporters Council Conference
This episode is a recording of Burn It All Down's live show on January 22, 2022 at the Independent Supporters Council Conference in Portland, Oregon. Lindsay Gibbs, Amira Rose Davis and Brenda Elsey talk about the rollercoaster that is the NWSL, discussing the state of governance and ownership. They end the show with the Burn Pile, some breaking news [!] and Torchbearers of the week.
This episode was produced by Tressa Versteeg. Shelby Weldon is our social media and website specialist. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network.
Links
MLS mourns the loss of Mauricio Fascio, vice president of LAFC supporters' group the 3252: https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/mls-mourns-loss-mauricio-fascio-vice-president-lafc-supporters-group-3252
Can Portland Timbers, Portland Thorns repair bonds with fans after allegations, controversy and distrust? https://www.espn.com/soccer/portland-thorns-fc/story/4568903/can-portland-timbersportland-thorns-repair-bonds-with-fans-after-scandals-and-distrust
North Carolina Courage leadership’s response to Jaelene Daniels backlash worsens growing disconnect with fans: https://theathletic.com/3085015/2022/01/21/north-carolina-courage-leaderships-response-to-jaelene-daniels-backlash-worsens-growing-disconnect-with-fans
The NWSL’s toxic dispute between a man who failed and the woman who should replace him: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/01/20/washington-spirit-owners-michelle-kang-steve-baldwin
Transcript
Lindsay: Hi, flamethrowers. Lindsay here. I'm so excited that this week's episode you're going to be hearing was actually a live show that we performed in Portland, Oregon on Saturday afternoon. It was myself, Amira and Brenda. The show was part of the ISC conference. ISC is the Independent Supporters Council, which was founded in 2009 to advocate for the fair treatment of home and away supporters, and promote supporters culture in soccer. This conference was attended mainly by representatives from supporters groups in the MLS and NWSL.
A few things I just want to mention before. First of all, we did get breaking news about Washington Spirit ownership in the middle of the burn pile during this episode. We knew that there was a meeting where there was going to be a vote happening by the NWSL board of governors, and it was possible that we’d know whether or not Michele Kang, the path was cleared for her to get ownership of the Washington Spirit. We knew it was a slight possibility it would break in the middle of the show. We also knew that if it did, with this group, there was going to need to be an instant reaction. So, just enjoy, enjoy the the live-ness of the show for that.
Also, the recording, for whatever reason, technology didn't pick up the first couple minutes of the show. So when we cut to this, it's going to be right in the middle of Amira introducing herself. So, you know, we'll just start in the middle of the action, lots of energy there. Also, since it did cut off the intro, it missed me thanking the Western States Center and ISC president Bailey Brown, who were responsible for hosting us and having us as part of this event, and we're so appreciative. We love doing live shows. It's something we've definitely missed. And if your school or group or anything you're a part of is interesting in hosting Burn It All Down for a live show, please get in touch. This was really special, and I hope you all enjoy it.
Amira: And what do you need to know about me? I’m Gemini– [laughter] [cheers] Thank you! Thank you!
Lindsay: And Dr. Brenda Elsey.
Brenda: So, I'm Brenda, Elsey. I'm a professor of history and Latin American and Caribbean–
Amira: Don’t say it like that! HISTORY!
Brenda: Yeah, I know, but you know–
Amira: It’s fucking cool!
Brenda: It's like, I'm going after you. So it's like, I'm also a professor of history, at Hofstra University on Long Island in New York. And, let's see…You heard from me this morning! So, you know, I work for Fare as well, and I am development lead for the Americas there. Yeah.
Lindsay: Perfect.
Brenda: Thank you.
Lindsay: Love it. Round of applause! [applause] Amira, will you get us started off with our land acknowledgement?
Amira: I will. Usually we don't do live shows, but we love when we get to do them because we get to gather with each other and gather with you. But before we do that, we want to acknowledge the space that we're gathering on. So of course, today we are filming this live in Portland, Oregon! [cheers] Portland of course rests on the traditional villages of the Cowlitz, the Multnomah, the Kathlamet, the Clackamas, the Tumwater, the Tualatin, Kalapuya, the Wasco, the Molalla, the Watlala, the Bands of the Chinook and other Indigenous nations along The Big River, the Columbia river. And we would be remiss without starting with that.
We also want to acknowledge that there are vibrant native people still living in Portland among us today. And to be respectful of that, we want to recognize the ongoing effects of settler colonialism and genocide and relocation and assimilation, and continue to work to upending those practices, because that's the right fucking thing to do. [applause]
Brenda: We also want to dedicate this episode to Mauricio, Mo, from LAFC, [applause] a beloved supporter. Really, really missing his face here.
Lindsay: Absolutely. To give you all the lay of the land, this is going to be a regular show. So we're releasing this as our weekly episode. So later on, we're going to do our regular burn pile, our regular torchbearer segments. Just a warning: we will mention sports that are not soccer in those sections. [laughs] Do not be alarmed! But we're going to start off focusing on soccer, and just to kind of get to know us, to set the stage, I wanted to ask my co-hosts a question: what is the weirdest moment you've ever experienced at a soccer game? Soccer match, excuse me. [Amira laughs]
Brenda: I guess we'll start with me. The weirdest…Okay: Ponte Preta versus Corinthians in a town in Brazil, it's a city of about a million people called Campinas. And that's a big rivalry, right? Some of, you know, like Dr. Sócrates and stuff like that. Anyway, it was really intense. What happened? I and my friend were not wearing the right color green. We wore green. We felt like we were safe, but it was more teal. [Amira laughs] And so they made us take off our shirts, and they burned them and put them on her fence. [laughter] And then they very nicely gave us new shirts that were the right color green!
So it was really generous, you know? I was happy to have a tank top on. And then what ended up happening was there was a fight right near us, and we had to run around the track to kind of get away from the fighting. And this is the hilarious part, is that we ended up then having to run away from the people, from Ponte Preta, because we had that green shirt. [laughter] And so that is like the weirdest thing. I'm a big jogger, for those of you that don't know me. But I could barely make it out. [Amira laughs]
Lindsay: That's incredible. I have to say, like, we have our little notes as we're preparing this, and Brenda's was just like “running away from fire.” [laughter] I was just so excited to hear that story. Did not disappoint. And I might even be more excited to hear Amira’s story.
Amira: Yeah, because my note on it was “Jordan Canniff’s grandpa's leash parrot.”
Lindsay: Yup. Yup. Yup. [laughs]
Amira: I mean, literally self-explanatory. I was at a Penn State soccer game and there weren't fans allowed, so it was just us and the families. I went to see one of my students, Sam Coffey, who as of two weeks ago is the newest member of the Portland Thorns! [applause] Very exciting. So I was chilling in the stands, and so there's not people because it was shut down, but there was a parrot on a leash! And I kept looking like, does anybody see a parrot? [laughter] It’s just me? And it turned out to be one of the players Jordan Canniff’s grandfather's parrot, which I knew because Lindsay had educated me that parrots can live for 80 fucking years! And he said the parrot is six months old. And I was like, you are in for a very long relationship with this parrot! [Lindsay laughs]
They had driven six hours from upstate New York with this parrot in a car, on a leash. I know all about this parrot’s life. I know all six months of that parrot’s life history, like, all of this stuff. And the Penn State mascot's a lion, but that day that parrot on a leash – which is very important, the leash is very important – became the unofficial mascot in my heart of the Penn State women's soccer game. And it was just very…Like, I've been in some situations at matches, it can be, you know, not fire. But that parrot is the first thing that came to mind, because why was there a parrot?
Lindsay: [laughs] I think that's a really, really fair question. Why was there a parrot? I realized I didn't introduce myself. I'm Lindsay Gibbs. I am a sports journalist focused on women's sports. I’m author of the Power Plays newsletter. And I say that now, because my wildest kind of moment at a soccer match, it was when I was reporting, I was there reporting. It was in 2016 when the Washington Spirit…Honestly, I'm completely blanking on who their opponent was right now, because it was the night that the owner played the anthem while Rapinoe was in the locker room. I had driven there, rented a car, because I lived in the city. You have to rent a car to get out there. And I'd actually driven with my boss at ThinkProgress at the time, which is what I was there to report for. And it was lightening, the game had been delayed hours because of lightening and rain. We didn't even know if it was going to happen. It was just one of the weirdest experiences.
And then all of a sudden they're like, oh, the game is going to start. Nobody knew when, because once again the game had been delayed so long for lightening, and like people are leaving, and then all of a sudden the anthem's playing and we're like, what's going on? And then they released that statement about hijacking the protest while everyone's there. [laughs] And the whole crowd is just freaking out. And then I see Jeff Plush who was the commissioner at the time. And I just run him down to get a statement, and the look on his face is one I will never forget, because he had no clue that they were going to do that that night, and he was not happy. And I was like, how do I describe this face in a post? Like, I've never seen anyone more, like....It was like, #IDidNotSignUpForThis, big time. [laughs] Just wild.
But anyways, we are going to get going. We're going to get going into our main segment, which when we were trying to figure out what we were going to talk about today, I just said, let's just take what the new cycle's giving us. Let's dive into this state of ownership and governance in the NWSL. [audience laughter]
Amira: Basically.
Brenda: We really picked a winner.
Lindsay: Wow! That's exactly the reaction I was hoping for when I was dreaming about it. But I was listening to last week's episode – I wasn’t on it. And Amira, said, you know, “Here at Burn It All Down we have a lot of questions, few answers, but plenty of rage.” And so I think that's a good a good way to kind of lead us into this segment. I want to start by kind of getting us all on the same page. I know you all have been following this, all of us in this room, we've been following this news. But we want to kind of set this up in case some of our listeners have been lucky enough to not! [laughs] To not know. Not going to go back that far. All of this is just kind of stuff that's happened this week, like in the past couple of weeks. So we're not even going back to the stuff that happened during the 2021 season, because we would never leave.
But I mean, just last week we had an ESPN article where Merritt Paulson and the Thorns admitted that they are not only not being transparent about the situation that's going on, not only trying to kind of gloss over everything, not only continuing to say that they did nothing wrong by, you know, firing Paul Riley but then allowing him to keep his good reputation throughout the league and publicly supporting him and allowing him to go on and coach of the North Carolina Courage for years; but that they don't essentially want to have a relationship with their dearest supporters anymore. Amira, there was a statement in that piece that really stood out to me. You want to get going?
Amira: Yeah. “We believe the 107IST needs to be more inclusive and open to differing viewpoints from its small group of leadership…” This is all such shit. Okay. [audience booing] “If a relationship is one-sided in a desire to drive protest over facts and players' desires, it isn't sustainable.” The statement continued to say, “We've come to the conclusion that the previous framework for dialogue and communication is due for a refresh and we will no longer be holding 107IST meetings in their current form as we look to increase our broader communication and input loops to the entirety of the supporters groups.”
Lindsay: Hey, uh, what does this crowd feel about that? [laughs] [audience booing]
Amira: I mean, it's just a lot of fucking words, that are just lies!
Lindsay: He says something like, “We want you to be more inclusive to bigots.” [laughs] Like, we want you to be more inclusive to sexual harassment and enablers!
Amira: It’s a way of saying we don't like when you ask for accountability.
Lindsay: Yeah. So, that's part of what's going on in Portland. Of course, in North Carolina, which is where I live, we've had the Courage decide to bring Jaelene Hinkle back. Jaelene Hinkle, openly homophobic. And yeah, I mean, that's the only kind of way to say it. She’s very proud of the fact that she believes that [homosexuality] is a sin and does not support it, to the point where she wouldn't be on the US women's national team when they had to wear pride jerseys. The fan base, when this happened, when the resigning was announced, was very, very unhappy. And we've gotten a couple of statements from the club trying to defend their decisions lately. Brenda?
Brenda: Yeah. So this is from Curt Johnson, chief soccer officer of the Courage, who told The Athletic, “If anyone were to create a toxic and/or harassing environment, they would not be welcome at our club.”
Lindsay: Huh! [laughs]
Brenda: Oh. That’s really interesting. And then Francie Gottsegen – I don't know if I'm saying that right, and I don't care because of what is to follow. In regard to Jaelene coming back: “I don't think it's caused harm to the community.”
Lindsay: Yeah.
Brenda: “I don't think it's caused harm. I understand Jaelene is a very talented player. She’s a great teammate. She’s been part of championship rosters and we hope that she is going to be helpful in bringing a championship back to the Courage. You know, this is a new team. We're very player focused.” [laughter] “And any decision we make is really focused on what is in the best interest of the team, and supporting and embracing the LGBT community has been very important to the club, and it's going to continue to be important to the club. We're going to have pride night,” [audience laughter] “We’re going to support pride month, and our players are very supportive of that.”
Amira: Except for one!
Lindsay: Except for the one that's not! [laughs]
Brenda: Super supportive.
Lindsay: So that's cool. And then I don't know if you guys have heard about some stuff going on in DC right now, [laughs] with…I don't have a pithy quote to sum that one up. Like, that's just some bullshit from head to toe. Steve Baldwin needs to sell the team. Michele…I’m not sure. Is it “Keng” or “Kong”?
Brenda: “Keng.”
Lindsay: Kang. Okay. Thank you. Making sure. Someone pronounced it “Kong” the other day and I was like, oh my gosh, have I been saying it wrong for the past year? And then I did not check it until right now. So this is cool. But yeah, Michele Kang has gotten…Issued…Enacted, basically, a coup to get enough voting interests on her side to take controlling interest. She wants to pay $35 million to buy the club. And the board of governors is just kind of shrugging and just saying, well, we don't know if we can approve this. Maybe Steve Baldwin should just find another owner. We don't know. Yes, Steve Baldwin enabled a whole lot of racism.
Amira: Details.
Lindsay: But yes, all of our players have come forward and said that they want Michele Kang to be owner. Yes, we are a league that constantly talks about not having enough money, and this person is willing [laughs] to pay $10 million more than the next person! But who can say what's the right thing to do? We know we might have answers to how this finished up by the time this episode comes out – possibly by the time we finish recording this episode. But I still think all of our points will stand, no matter what happens, because it should not have gotten this far! And you know, all of this is coming under a wave of new ownerships, new teams coming into the league, new investments. We've got Angel City FC, [audience cheers] we’ve got San Diego!
You know, there's some really exciting things happening throughout the league. We finally got rid of Hansen, might have a new team in Utah. The new owner in Utah, whose name I have on one of these sheets…David Blitzer has said that he wants to bring back the NWSL team to Utah, which would be very exciting. And so it just seems that we're just at this crisis point with the league, like, are things going to keep going forward? Can they keep going forward in this way? And what can we do about it? I wanted to start, like, when we go through this very long list of issues, Brenda, what's kind of like your first reaction? What have been your top line thoughts?
Brenda: You can't hear my face, but I'm too jaded to be surprised. You know, I feel that this is something we've all known for so long. But I'm glad it's getting real attention because it's been a very long time that this bullshit has been happening. And I feel like at least, you know, the issue with Michele Kang, for example, got some decent coverage and people beyond soccer are paying attention to the ways in which these power structures are working.
Lindsay: Yeah. Sally Jenkins of the Washington Post wrote a blazing hot, fire column. And like, it is good that people like that writing columns, calling out that bullshit. Amira?
Amira: Yeah. I mean, I think that what we see here is that the gap between like task force and committees and cute tweets and statements and like real, tangible, concrete action is so fucking vast. And when folks are actually asking for accountability and transparency and time to like actually put actions and resources and reconfigurations in place, you see it all kind of fall apart, and you really see it for the house of cards that many of these governance structures are. And I think that’s probably because taking those steps actually means shifting the very foundation from which current ownership structures derive power. And you know, power, at the end of the day, is really easy to retain if you're just making cute tweets and not actually, I don't know, doing anything.
Brenda: But they support gay pride night, Amira!
Amira: I heard, I heard!
Lindsay: #LoveIsLove. [laughs] #ColorBlind.
Amira: And listen! It was just Martin Luther King Day, so I saw all of their MLK tweets and that like will happen, for sure. Keep them oriented for 365 days. I've seen all of their task force committees and their announcements of another meeting to name another committee for another task force to look into…
Lindsay: To do another investigation, to do another…Yeah.
Amira: They love investigations! But then at the end of the day, it's just like, aight, you want to keep your power. And I really wish sometimes, like, I don't like that…What was that statement I read before? I wish that maybe we should just all save the time and bullshit. Just be like, “I don't want to give up power.” And I'd be like, bet.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Amira: Like, then we won't want to fucking meet with you. We'll move differently. But like, I'm just…It’s tiring. It’s tiring.
Lindsay: And it’s more than that even. And this is something I write about a lot in Power Plays and I’m constantly talking to my readers about, like, it really does feel like the people who are in charge of women's sports aren't afraid of what happens if they fail. They're afraid of what happens if they actually succeed, right? [laughs] Like, if they actually become…Because it shifts the very power structure that sports is built upon, right? If the NWSL can be as big as the MLS, what does that say about their choices, their lives, their investments, you know? A lot of people come into women's sports and like to have ownership of it, like to have management of it, because it makes them feel like a good person, because they are fathers of daughters. [laughter]
Brenda; They have women friends.
Lindsay: You know? And they treat it like it's a charity and it's something to put on their resume to say, look, I'm a good person. And I see, when I look at the board of governors and with what's happening, with...Why has the obvious decision to let Michele Kang buy the team, how has this not been pushed through? And I really truly think it's because it's all these owners at the table looking in their closet, looking at the secrets, looking at the ways they fucked up, looking at their racism and their sexism and their bigotry, and thinking, oh, could I be pushed out in the same way? And so we don't want to. If we let this Asian woman who has the support of the players enact this coup and take over the team, like, what does that say? What could happen within my club?
And I want to say: what it says is all of your bullshit, get it outta here. We don't want it. We don't want it. [applause] So, like I said, we're at this pivotal time, because it's not all bad what's happening, right? [laughs] Like, the truth is we're 10 years into this league. That's an exciting moment for women's sports. That's taken a lot of blood, sweat, and side hustles – #NoMoreSideHustles, you know? – from players, from fans, from everyone involved. And so we want to take a minute and just acknowledge some of the good stuff that's going on and some of the stuff we would like to keep.
Brenda: I want to keep Eni Aluko.
Lindsay: Yes. [laughter]
Brenda: Not aggressively. But yeah, so–
Lindsay: Not in a creepy way. [laughs]
Brenda: Yeah. But Angel City FC, as I've said, I just redid the data for MLS and NWSL in terms of Latino, Black and women's representation. We can talk about it a little more later, but good news is that, you know, first Black GM, as far as I know, and have known in NWSL, Eni Aluko! [applause] As far as I can tell, real first Black woman executive, looking back – though that data is hard to find, because of aforementioned reasons about screwing over women's sports. And we've seen a huge increase. So whatever this crisis brings, it has brought a huge increase in women head coaches. And that's pretty phenomenal. I don't know why MLS hasn't taken the same stance towards women head coaches, you know, same sport–
Lindsay: You don’t? [laughter]
Brenda: Same sport! But the last time I did the data, there was like, I don't know, six British white men, one Dutch white man, one woman and something else, and now we have a bunch. So, that's pretty awesome. I'm pretty excited about that.
Lindsay: Yeah. Amira, what keeps you going?
Amira: Black Women's Players Collective, for sure. [audience cheering] I'm especially inspired by the work that they've been putting in alongside Black Players for Change, because a lot of what they are doing is also moving structurally. So things like the mini pitch initiative, right? That is talking about access to the game and saying, how can we actually get people onto pitches and set those up in places that have been inaccessible? But also, I mean, they have a multi approach to solving it. So, it's about amplifying their voices, their stories, talking about structural initiatives and visions. And also the way they're moving, just in terms of collective building, both vertically and horizontally across other organizations and then with folks in sport. It’s absolutely a blueprint moving forward, and I continue to support and be inspired by the work that they're doing over there.
Lindsay: Absolutely. And you know, on that note, for me, it's the solidarity we're seeing and the labor solidarity, you know, finally really making strides towards getting a CBA. These players…You know, we're 10 years into this and there's talk of a work stoppage if they don't get the CBA. And I think that's something we obviously support. I think what we've seen in Brenda's work and Amira's work shows us so much, is just the only way forward for women's sports – and I'm sure for men's sports too, but I don't care as much about that – is labor solidarity, right? It's players enacting their own power. And I think the way we're like–
Amira: Labor history!
Brenda: We’re like, yaaaaay! [laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah. You know, that's it. That’s it. And also, it is cool to see the interest as someone…I cover a lot of WBA and there's been, you know, there hasn't been an expansion in that league in so long. And so seeing these new owners come in to the NWSL and bring this excitement and have this expansion, and I think it's a really good sign. I mean, I think what Angel City has done with bringing in people from outside of the sports world but who are passionate about the sport, about women, about diversity. I think that's really important. And I'm really excited to see where that goes, because one thing we always talk about in women's sports is, like, what is the ideal ownership structure? Do you know what I mean? Like, what even does that look like?
You know, we talked about these women's sports teams in the NWSL, and they don't really prioritize them, you know, at all. Like, they don't care about them. I mean, one of the most famous examples is what used to be before the fan groups and the players spoke out, you know, Phil Murphy was doing when it was Sky Blue, right? You know, very much like the ultimate father of daughters statement, you know, saying, “I bought this team cause I care about women,” but oh, they don't even place a shower, you know? They're taking ice baths in trash cans, right? I'm sorry, you don't get your brownie points for that.
But what's really bothered me is hearing that these owners aren't even showing up to these CBA negotiations. And I think that's, to me, the scariest part. I talked with the president of the player's association, we interviewed her for the podcast last year, and I think we were the first to report that a hundred players would show up to these meetings and no owners. And a lot of times I'm wondering, are these joint owners, right? Are these the owners that own MLS teams or own European teams and then just have their women's team as like their side charity project and don't really care about it? And I know Amira has…I mean, Brenda will, and Amira – everyone here! But we've got some thoughts on kind of this joint ownership structure model, and what are the pros and cons of that.
Brenda: Yeah. As I said earlier this morning, in my ideal world, it works like a member owned club, right? I love that. I love that they vote on things like the general manager and you don't have to trust one private owner to make the right decision for your club. But since we don't have that, [laughter] I’m really interested in how people – and I hope we can talk later and we can hear from you and we'll have time – about how the co-ownership works in terms of, have we seen it benefit the women's teams if they're attached to the men's teams? Like, I can tell you that that has not worked in South America, that Santos has not done anything for the women's team, and in fact they just use it to be able to participate in their regional club championship, because you have to, basically, because someone once upon a time put a rule in there, and all the men's clubs were like, what? And then they got on board.
So I'm interested in that, you know, and interested in what happens with Leipzig, you know, and Red Bull and stuff like that. And the difference between them…Because what I have seen is the change in NWSL. And I hate to repeat myself, but it's not my fault. I'm a broken record because somebody is breaking the record. [Lindsay laughs] It’s that MLS has really bad numbers! Terrible representation in terms of, you know, every level of executives. And when you start to say, well, then MLS is going to own part of an NWSL team, that gives me kind of a creepy, bad, gross feeling, right? Because I don't feel that that NWSL team is going to be able to come in and say, no, you should do it like we do it. But instead like they do it. So I guess that's where I'm feeling really kind of conflicted.
Amira: Well, because I think what you're hitting on, and this is really important, is that oftentimes when we're talking about this, we're talking about things, whether it's governance structure or media deals or whatever, what we're seeing in women's sports is by necessity they've had to be gritty, they’ve had to be inventive, and they don't have to replicate the models that traditional sporting spaces have. Because as we know, if you listen at all to any of our podcasts, there is no shortage of fuckery in those spaces as well. And I think that Brenda always…You know, if you haven't read Brenda and Josh’s book Futbolera, please check it out. It's a wonderful history of soccer in Latin American and women's participation. But one of the things that Brenda always reminds us of is what does feminist football actually look like? It's not necessarily just a copy and paste thing.
And so when we're talking about this and we're talking about those owners, Lindsay, clinging to this idea of power, is because it is just copying and pasting a model of getting that. And I think what is much harder is saying, what if we actually ask questions and have new things and make sports work for everybody better? Work for the players better, work for the fans better. And those are the questions that get more resistance. And so what we're seeing in many ways is the NWSL is leading in a lot of areas that we give a damn about. But the people who have the resources still tend to be on the men's side. So we're talking about these co-ownership structures, that ambivalence is like, yeah, you're bringing money to the table, but not necessarily ideas that I want to replicate, you know?
Brenda: Totally. And it's often NFL intel that they're bringing to the table.
Amira: [laughs] Right.
Brenda: [coughs] I don't think I need–
Lindsay: Is that something in your throat, Brenda? What's happening?
Amira: You can’t cough during COVID.
Brenda: Oh, sorry. [laughter] Don Garber, fine. But not only him – there's a ton of executives and owners that are bringing the intel straight from the NFL, and is that something that this type of a progressive supporter culture in the US and these possibilities, you know, stars that are out, things that haven't happened in other countries. Is that the type of mentality that you want to govern your football, your soccer? [Amira laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah. And like I said, I mean, I always just kind of relate things back to the WNBA, which when it was founded, you had to be…The only people allowed to be owners of WNBA teams were you had to have an NBA team. Like, that was how it worked. And it took about five, six years for them to move to allowing more independent ownership. The first group was in Connecticut, which makes sense because UConn and, you know, there's such rabid support. But you're still seeing this tension between…You know, there are teams like the Indiana Fever who…The team is spiraling, and there's zero urgency from the owners there. They really don't care. My friend Howard Megdal wrote a great piece on this over at his newsletter, The IX, just about like how when the Indiana Pacers, who they also co-own, were on a big losing streak this season, they held this press conference, they were like, we'll get this team right. We'll get back to winning.
Whereas the Fever had been in free fall for years. They just got rid of another first round draft pick after one year. You know what I mean? And I hate to say it because the two women who are leading the team – Tamika Catchings as general manager and Marianne Stanley as the head coach, like, these are legends of the game, but are they getting the support from the leadership? And where's the urgency? Because honestly, we don't want to blindly let women stay in their jobs if they're not doing right either. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not progress! [laughs] I get that, you know, that there's a joke that that could be progress if we're enabling women to be as bad as men, [laughs] but you know, it puts things in a shitty position at the end.
And at the same time, I've seen so many teams in the NWSL and the WNBA who are independently owned, who can't keep up, you know, whether it be the ticket sales department, whether it be just the infrastructure, just the staffing, can't keep up with these teams that are co-owned by MLS, or, you know, now we've got Mark Davis in the WNBA, so, you know, the NFL teams…And I think it's a real conundrum. I think it's a place that we've always seen women's sports struggle with, like, do we build it on our own from a grassroots level? Or do we use the support from the men's side and the money and the patriarchy, but also deal with the strings that come attached to that? And I don't know. I wish there was one clear right answer. Like, I want to be able to say yes, like, leave the patriarchy behind completely, you know? Fuck it.
But I don't know if that's right, because you know, you do see like what Mark Davis is building for Las Vegas now. Like, he just committed to getting like practice facilities for the players and building all these state-of-the-art things. And so I think there has to be way where it's not just owning the team, it’s not just letting it slide, but if you wanna bring in your billions, if you want to bring in that stuff, make it a prize, right? Treat it like the prize it is. But I don't know. I don't know. I'm very conflicted on this, always. We say we have a lot of questions, but we don't always have as many answers, but we're going to try and point out now some concrete things that we'd like to see from the NWSL that we think could move things in the right direction.
Brenda: [laughs] I feel like a bunch of people just looked at me, like, it’s so cute.
Lindsay: Let's turn to our optimist, Brenda! [laughs]
Brenda: Totally, rose colored glasses. Rose City colored glasses. [Amira laughs] Ha-ha. Here’s the thing: I would go straight for the federation level of this conversation. There's not an independence between the NWSL, really, MLS, and US Soccer Federation. And that's a real problem. I know that they supposedly ended their financial relationship, MLS and US Soccer, but you know, for a long time they've been paying MLS to run their tournaments! You know this, right? People know this? Okay. So that's not normal governance. That’s not regular. So for example, if a player has to report – man or woman or whatever gender – has to report something, they have nowhere to really go anyway, because it's like asking them to tell on themselves, right?
So the problem is if you don't have independence at the federation level – this has to do with financial transparency, this has to do with player abuse – then it's a mess. And I don't know any other country whose soccer runs like this. Do you know what I mean? The federation is supposed to be in charge, not beholden to the professional league. And what we have is a federation, and there's many good people in it, and many good people trying to make changes in it. So I'm not…But the structure itself, I think, is super fucked up, basically. And I think it's weird that FIFA hasn't come in. And I think when you have corruption and you have these types of things, then you're more likely to let things like toxic culture go without accountability. So I think those things are connected.
Amira: Yeah. [silence] [laughter]
Brenda: Isn't that fun? Aren’t I fun at parties? [laughter]
Lindsay: She's literally always like this. [laughter]
Brenda: Oh, and I had a point. Yeah. Amira’s saying there was one more point.
Lindsay: This will help us transition to the next point. [laughs]
Brenda: Yeah, it will. Sorry. Yeah. Transitions. It’s also just, you know, changes I want to see? Get to know your fucking fan base. So, one thing that drives me crazy and drove WPS into the ground was trying to market it to exclusively heterosexual soccer mom, you know? Presumably white and very middle-class. And then they were like, oh, wait, that's not who was going to women's soccer games back then! So, you know, I feel like there's been just little effort in trying to imagine the communities that they're supposed to be serving. You know, that better than me.
Amira: Absolutely. Yeah. And along those lines, I mean, I think that Brenda was definitely starting kind of at the top. And for me, it also goes hand-in-hand with thinking about the youth game and youth systems and the community there. I know that one of the things that we see is this huge disconnect between the richness of supporter culture at the professional level and how that comes to be. It's been really great now that Austin has a football club to be able to take kids to the stadium. Maybe they have a game before…I mean, my kids are insomniacs so they're fucking there, but like, 8:00pm every game, right? [Brenda laughs] But the point is that a lot of times the feeder system into even loving this game is so closed off. And so when we talk about the youth system, we talk about eradicating pay for play, we talk about opening up access to these games earlier so that you can develop culture. Because one of the things that happens is it invites more people into the game.
We talk about inclusivity, right? But we have to plant those seeds somewhere. So what happens if we really think about what's going on at the youth level and think about that as a giant feeder system to bringing more voices to the table, so that people come with new ideas and people who've grown up with a love for the game, knowing something different, imagining something different. Because all the time we get into a big room with our big old aged self and, you know, we got here through our own pathways and we should continue to open that up. And that requires thinking really critically and concretely about the youth system, and not as an afterthought, but as part and parcel of all these other conversations.
Lindsay: Absolutely. Bren?
Brenda: Isn't this more fun than The Cooligans? [laughter] [applause]
Lindsay: Woo! Yes!
Brenda: I feel like they'd respect that burn. [inaudible] No, I made my point earlier.
Lindsay: Okay, fine. Fine. Coming at this from a media perspective, as a journalist, the big thing I want to see is like, can we treat media like the right investment? Like, let's actually get fucking cameras out there? [laughs] Like, multi cameras. I mean, it is still wild to me, the difference in visuals between some of these men's games that I watch versus the women's games. You don't realize how bad the women's games look until you see the men, and you're like, oh, I see their sweat!
Amira: The camera angles!
Lindsay: I see their sweat! I could barely see her ponytail! [laughter] Like, what is happening here? And, you know, just prioritize media and prioritize promoting your players. Prioritize uplifting their voices – and a diverse set of voices, right? I love Megan Rapinoe as much as anyone, but she shouldn't be the face of the league anymore, right? And I think she would probably say that too! Like Dunn, you know? Like Midge Purce, like, get her out there, everything. And you know, I just want to see more competence. It sometimes feels like the people running this don't even know what they have, right? Like they don't even know who these players are, what their fan base is. Like they just kind of sit up and it's all based on one market research study from the year 2000! [laughs]
Amira: Literally! Remember when they were like, oh, we're going to put it on Lifetime, because that's what women watch. [audience laughter] It's like, yeah, I sit down and I'm like, where…I want to find a soccer game. My first choice is not Lifetime! That's where it’s on?
Lindsay: Yeah, that deal did not last long.
Amira: That did not go well.
Lindsay: Julia Roberts taking a soccer ball was not… [audience laughter] Turned out to not all of a sudden make everybody in the world a women's soccer fan. Which like, also, love Julia Roberts. But like, is that the most modern actress you could find? [laughter] But it's Lifetime, so the answer is yes, like, that is the biggest star they knew. You know, I also just want to say, these investigations that are happening right now, like, there's this big US Soccer investigation going in, we've had these survivors – you know, Mana Shim come forward, Kaiya McCullough – and we've had these stories told, and we've had journalists doing phenomenal, phenomenal work. What Molly Hensley-Clancy and of course Meg Linehan have done for women's soccer with their reporting, and what their institutions have done by supporting them in that reporting.
I mean, I think that's also the way forward. But you've got to be transparent. This investigation that Sally Yates is doing or whatever into what's been going on at US Soccer, that needs to be released in full, because there is so much power in that. We’ve recently seen in the…I don't know if you all followed with the NCAA last year at the women's basketball tournament with the weight rooms – the weight rack and then the weight room! [laughter] And all the outrage that that brought about.
And then NCAA hired investigators and they released that report in full, which, I never give the NCAA credit for anything. This is the only one thing I will say, is that report was released in full. I've been doing series on it. I could literally write about nothing but the findings from that report for two years, because it is a line by line of receipts for the way that women's sports have been devalued from a sponsorship level, from a television level, you know? I mean, the whole system just rewards literally investing in men's sports, and it's going to be slow change, but it's promoting change. Like, they finally realized, oh, we can't call the women's basketball, they can use Final Four. They can use March Madness. Oh, a Twitter account just for the women that we run. Oh, I guess we could do that.
Amira: And the thing about it is, I mean, we work on this, and we were surprised by this report. I mean, I just want to say that again. We literally all in various ways specialize in the atrocities of sport, and we were surprised by what was in this report, because that's how much is buried there, right? So when we're talking about transparency, as terrible as we think it is, it's usually way worse! [laughs]
Lindsay: Yeah! Way worse. But it's actually created change, and that's because it was released in full. And so my biggest thing, the only way I think I will know if anyone up in leadership is at all serious about making things better, I think the only…Well, there's a lot of other things, I'm very much lying. [laughs] But the biggest thing is, are you going to fully release this investigation? Are you going to fully release these findings and make them public? Or how redacted are you going to be? Because the lack of transparency right now, it’s…No. Like, this is not acceptable in any fucking way. Amira, hat's the final thing we really want to say?
Amira: Yeah. Fans needs more seats at the table, and it can't be, like, I'm inviting you to the table and then you didn’t like what I was serving you so I'm pulling your chair out and kicking you out of my house, you know? With these bullshit statements. They have to be actual, real, not just at the table, but like with the recipe, with the ingredients, making the meal too. When we talk about sports culture in general, we talk about all these prongs – athletes, we talk about fans and supporters groups, we talk about leadership, et cetera, we talk about media. And really what we push for and what we see is when people work collectively across that is when we actually see change. And what we're seeing now is that there have been a wonderful efforts on the ground, grassroots efforts from supporter groups, from fans. And we see leadership run from that! [laughs] And so that needs to continue to be in place. It needs to be fortified. And it continues to be what we take going forward as we continue to build this game up. [applause]
Lindsay: Yes! All right. For our interview this week, which will air on Thursday, Amira talks with Jess Weiner, the host of the new podcast Dominant Stories, about her involvement in Dove's Real Beauty campaign, Mattel's inclusive Barbie line, and how we challenge and shift the dominant stories we tell about fitness, bodies and beauty. I cannot wait to listen to that. Now it's time for our favorite part – and we're going to need some help from you all in this part, okay? It's the burn pile. Let's practice. At the end of each member we're going to need help burning. So on the count of three, I want everyone to shout “Burn!” Okay? One, two, three!
All: Burn!
Lindsay: Oh, that feels good. Isn't it fun to yell? It's so fun. [laughs] Brenda, get us started.
Brenda: All right. There's so much to burn, but I've really fixed my sights on everyone who hasn't done shit for the Africa Cup of Nations, which is so exciting. I am so disgusted by the ways in which the commentators are even talking about it. It's like everybody's compared to something in England, and by the way, they play in England. So it's like, “That was a first class goal. That could have been a goal for Chelsea.”
Amira: BECAUSE HE FUCKING PLAYS FOR CHELSEA! [laughter]
Brenda: Exactly! What!?
Amira: It's absurd.!
Brenda: What's happening!? So, I watch this tournament. And do you think I can go to mainstream sports channels – and by channels I mean broadly like newspapers and whatnot – to read about said tournament? No, I can’t! Because they don't care, because it's taking place in Africa, where there are dozens and dozens of nations that have sent their greatest talents to Europe. And yet it's simply too much to ask for some real ass coverage. And it is fantastic. I mean, Senegal, missing 11 players, there's drama, drama, drama, drama, all over the place. Terrible calls! The worst officiating I've seen! This should be your bread and butter, people!
And instead, in the New York Times, there's a beautiful op-ed by Sean Jacobs, who, if you want to fall anybody on this, is tremendous, and has a great primer on it. And guess how much he got paid for that? Nothing! NOTHING. Because that's what they do. They wait for somebody with real expertise who cares enough to do that shit for free for them. So, I wanna burn that whole thing. So, I'm going to say burn, and then you're going to…Right? Ready? Burn!
All: Burn!
Lindsay: Whew. I get chills. All right. I gave the NCAA credit, and now it's time for me to immediately–! [laughs]
Amira: Toss it on the burn pile.
Lindsay: I lasted about one minute. [laughs]
Amira: And that's the most credit they ever can get.
Lindsay: And that’s a record for me saying anything positive about the NCAA. So, this week, the NCAA suddenly announced weeping changes to its trans inclusion guidelines. I'm going to read from Athlete Ally here, because there's just so much here. I want to make sure we're getting it right. So, this announcement states that the NCAA will align with the newest guidelines for transgender participation as outlined by the IOC, which, you know, the standard-bearers for inclusion we've got here. But the NCAA, they will now follow a sport by sport model, allowing each sport essentially to individually decide it's guidelines for trans inclusion. What could possibly go wrong? Their release points to the IOC guidelines, but of course it deviate significantly from them by including zero safeguards against harmful and invasive procedures or treatment such as mandatory surgeries or visual inspection of athletes’ genitalia.
There's also no mention of how to work with the NGBs, the national governing bodies, to recognize and prevent harm. And it continues to place the burden on college age athletes to prove they do not have an unfair advantages simply because of who they are. It does not comply with the world professional association for transgender health’s most recent standards for care, and indicates no direct stakeholder engagement from transgender and non-binary athletes themselves. This of course all comes on the heels of Lia Thomas, the swimmer at the University of Pennsylvania, having a lot of success in swimming. She's a trans woman who has followed the NCAA's 2011 guidelines.
Conservative media has picked up on her story. And I think it's absolutely no coincidence that after having the same guidelines for 10 years, suddenly under the dark of night with zero consultation to experts, the NCAA swiftly changes this. And the larger context of this is that these bills banning transgender children from competing in athletics and taking away healthcare from transgender children and adults continue to sweep the nation. They're right now actively – and we will in the show notes of this episode and on Twitter have links to how you can fight these, because right now these bills are getting through legislations and Arizona, Indiana, and South Dakota. We're at a crisis point, and the NCAA’s decision was to try and pass the ball. So, this one's going to feel good. Burn!
All: Burn.
Lindsay: Amira?
Amira: Yeah. Some of you may know we have a podcast coming out on February 21st called American Prodigies, which is the third season of the show. And I'll be hosting the season on Black gymnasts. And so I'm thinking about gymnastics a lot, and this week we saw an incident that reminds us why we wanted to get the voices of Black gymnasts front and center in the first place. So, come with me, if you will, on a journey over to UCLA Gymnastics. You might be familiar with UCLA Gymnastics because every year, yes, they're A) dominant, and B) go viral with beautiful routines. This is a different type of story about UCLA Gymnastics.
This is a story about somebody who used to be on the UCLA Gymnastics program, named Alexis Jeffrey. She took quite a lot of pleasure in saying many different slurs to her Black and Asian teammates, repeatedly, without consequence. When those teammates reported her to their coaches, they were told to “go easy on her.” When they repeatedly said she was making them feel unsafe, she kept calling them the n-word, she kept repeating it and she didn't care when they told her not to; they said, well, please...
[audience member speaking, inaudible]
All: Woo! [cheering] [applause]
Amira: I’ll say that louder. The people in the back couldn’t hear. Kang got the team!
Lindsay: WE JUST GOT BREAKING NEWS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PODCAST! [applause] Yes!
Brenda: Don't you feel like we did that, somehow?
Lindsay: YES! They heard us! Woo hoo!
Amira: That is great news.
Lindsay: Oh man. That's the happiest we've ever been during the burn. [laughter] All right. We're going to keep going, but we'll be celebrating with you all later. Oh my gosh! Okay.
Amira: That is really good news. This is not, however. [laughter] So, the next time they went and said, hey, by the way, she's still saying these slurs, they were told not just to ignore her, but actually to make sure they were continuing to be nice to her because she was feeling “ostracized and attacked” by them insisting that she not called them slurs. Okay? Because she threatened to harm herself if she continued to be called out for this, the coaching staff put the burden on the affected gymnasts to literally be nice to her because they were worried about this girl. They were worried about the aggressor in the situation. They asked her to stop doing it, and she wouldn't do it. And she was so scared of accountability that she actually entered the transfer portal and is now an LSU gymnast.
In the meantime, they have continued to trample on the story. They told the gymnasts they can't talk about it, they don't want reporting on it. At this point, they won't even take a meeting. The gymnasts have taken to Twitter to @ their athletic director. Think about that. They are on Twitter, tagging their athletic director because they won't have a meeting with them. They won't talk about it. They just want it to go away. If you were on Twitter and seeing this exchange, you might notice that it comes on the heels of their Black Lives Matter meet in Minnesota last week, in which they were wearing UCLA shirts that they were made to wear and pose with, that said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
I don't know where you think you're looking for injustice, but it's happening in your own damn gym. It's in Pauley, if you're looking for injustice. It’s in the fact of this assumption that mental health concerns are only on the tears of a white gymnast who can't fix her mouth to stop saying slurs. Like, this is not a gargantuan task that they're asking for here. And I want to be clear about one thing, because the presumption I even saw in replies to this, that said even in this moment, right? That they were really worried about this gymnast who's now transferred. They were worried about her mental health. And I understand that. Mental health is a real concern. But there's never any worry spared to those who are actually the victims of this aggressive racial abuse. That's what it is. And that actually takes a mental fucking toll too.
You don't believe me? Listen to the voices of the Black gymnasts who are telling you that hurts. That's harmful. I cannot compete in labor under these conditions, but that doesn't seem to matter as much as somebody being able to just slur people with impunity and run away at the first sign of accountability – which, by the way, isn't coming, because those people in those structures of power would rather just have it go away than actually deal with the issue while they're trotting out their Black gymnasts to get all of the viral clicks for the school that deemed to be the most progressive school in gymnastics. Ha! It's a fucking joke, and burn it all down.
All: Burn!
Lindsay: Whew! All right. You okay?
Amira: Yes!
Lindsay: I love that you have a mic stand and you're holding your mic. It's my favorite. [laughs]
Amira: I am! I am. It’s got me fucked up, man.
Lindsay: Death grip. Okay. All right. We got some torchbearers. After all that burning, it's time to lift up some people who are really inspiring us. Michele Kang was one of our torchbearers last week, but of course, SHE’S GOT THE TEAM! WOO! [applause] Another shoutout to her. Amira, we want to start off with honoring someone who passed this week, who had a huge impact on women's sports.
Amira: Huge loss. Lusia Harris has gone to be with the ancestors. The girl who went from the Mississippi Delta to become the first Black woman and the first women's college basketball player in the Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield. Over the course of the 70s, brought three championships to Delta State, was the modern dominant center, and absolutely is a name that we should all know. It was yet another week of watching people get their flowers too little, too late. I do hope this renewed interest will help change the gym at Delta State in her name, especially because right now it’s named for a really racist dude.
Lindsay: [laughs] Minor details. [laughs]
Amira: Minor details.
Brenda: And so many are.
Amira: But more importantly, Lusia Harris is absolutely somebody who changed the game of women's basketball, and is just one of the many great Black women athletes that we have lost and then remembered after their passing. And so I want to start our torchbearers section, which she absolutely was in life, by remembering her life, by treating her memory as a blessing, and by lifting her up. Easy, easy travels, Lusia. [applause]
Lindsay: Absolutely. Brenda, what's our trend of the week?
Brenda: Women athletes getting hired as coaches! [audience cheers] Woo! This week, we had the phenomenal Michelle Akers return to the soccer world as an assistant coach of the Orlando Pride. [applause] Look at that! That was exciting. And, in the WNBA, half of the teams are now coached by former WNBA players, with the announcement that the Phoenix Mercury have hired Vanessa Nygaard as head coach. [applause]
Lindsay: Yes! Amira, who's our strongwoman of the week?
Amira: That would be Cristina Medina, who was hired by the Padres as the strength and conditioning coach for their Dominican academy. The Mexican is the second Latina hired by an MLB team to serve as a S&C coach. She follows the Giants’ Andrea Nuñez, who made history when the Angels hired her two years ago. So, shoutout to you, Cristina, and all the strength and conditioning coaches. [applause]
Lindsay: Yes! All right. Our investors of the week is the board of governors at the Premier Hockey Federation, a women's professional hockey league, who announced that it has made a commitment of more than $25 million in direct payments and benefits to players over the next three years. This commitment includes expansion to two markets and $7.5 million in salary and benefits for the ’22-23 season. We love to see it! [laughs] Yes! [applause] Bren, who's our boss of the week?
Brenda: It is Alexandra Benado, who was just named minister of sport in Chile by the new president, Gabriel Boric. If you haven't paid attention to what's happening in Chile, do! It's heartwarming, it's inspiring, et cetera. She is a gay rights activist and former women's national player for Chile. She will also oversee the 2023 Pan-American and Para Pan-American Games. Unfortunately, I can't edit it out like I can at home, so you all heard that. So just pretend I said it perfectly. And she's also the first openly lesbian minister in Chile.
Lindsay: Yes! Our triple double of the week is Caitlin Clark, Iowa basketball player. On Thursday, she had 35 points with 13 rebounds and 11 assists in Iowa’s complete destruction of Minnesota, 105 to 49.
Brenda: Oof! [laughter]
Lindsay: If you didn't hear that, it was “Oof!” [laughs] It was her second straight game with a 30 point triple double. She's the only player – men’s basketball or women's basketball – in NCAA history to have two straight 30 point triple double games. That's a lot! [laughter] [applause] Amira, who are journalists of the week?
Amira: Yeah, that would be our own Jessica Luther and Dan Solomon, who just released for Texas Monthly a heartbreaking, stirring and necessary report. They talked to 19 survivors of abuse, looking at gymnastics. It has been a journey for them to get this piece to see the light of day. Please check it out. And for their tireless and continued effort to write about and investigate institutions and people that do harm, we want to shout out and hold space for Jess and Dan. [applause]
Lindsay: Absolutely. And now, once again, I need some audience participation. Can I get a drumroll, please?
[drumroll]
Our torchbearers of the week is: YOU! Woo! I cannot tell you, as someone who did not grow up in soccer culture, who doesn't know soccer culture, to be around…No other sport has it like this. To be around supporters of teams who want to organize and make things better…It’s the only way forward. That, along with solidarity amongst players. And I'm so inspired to be here. We are so grateful to be here, to be having these conversations. And it's just great to be around people who love sports but want them to be better. So, thank you all. [applause]
All right. We usually do a what's good segment here, but I'm pretty sure it's just this. [laughs] It’s being here with all of you! It's just being here with all of you, live in Portland. We do want to take a minute though…As one of our co-hosts would say, it's a holiday. It is the birthday of our very own Shireen Ahmed, who is in Canada, and so couldn't make it down here with all the travel and COVID stuff. But we thought we want to end by maybe singing her happy birthday. Would you all be willing to a sing a little happy birthday?
Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Shireen. Happy birthday to you!
Lindsay: [applause] Woo! [laughs] We love you, Shireen!
Amira: Look – they can hear you say one thing, quickly.
Shireen (on the phone): Thank you so much, everyone!
Lindsay: Aww! [laughs]
Amira: She’s crying. Okay, love you! Call you later! [laughter]
Lindsay: We’re busy, bye! [laughs]
Brenda: She’s quite a crier. [laughter] We don’t have all day.
Lindsay: Thank you all for that. I know we've been talking for a while, we're wrapping up here. If there are any questions, if you want to do a Q&A, we've got the mic, we've got the time for that. But I know everyone wants a drink and wants to celebrate as well, so we'll figure out the best balance for it. But we want to just thank everyone for having us here.
That's all for this week's episode of Burn It All Down. Our producer is Tressa Versteeg, Shelby Weldon is our web and social media wizard. Burn It All Down is part of the Blue Wire podcast network. For this episode, we have to give a specific and special thanks to the ISC, to Bailey, Drew, and the Western States Center, and to all of you for being here and listening to us. You can follow our show on Burn It All Down, once again. It's the name on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Listen, subscribe, rate on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, all the things. Our website, burnitalldown.pod.com, has show links and transcripts and a link to our merch store. And I believe Amira has stickers…
Amira: I don’t have that many though, okay? Ask a question, get a sticker, something like that. [laughter]
Lindsay: Alright. [laughs] When you said, “I have stickers for everybody…” [laughter] That was very misleading! [laughs] In my defense! I feel like…Anyways.
Amira: I have stickers for a healthy amount of people.
Lindsay: Okay. [laughs] We have some stickers here, but you can order them on our merch store, Bonfire. And we are supported by Patreon. So, thank you to our patrons. Your support means the world. And you can keep our podcasts going if you go to patreon.com/burnitalldown. I think it's like $2 a month to be a sustaining donor to the show and get access to some extra segments and watch parties. And we'll probably…We might put this Q&A up there. I don't know. We're still figuring it out. But thank you all so, so much. Did I say we're a part of the Blue Wire podcast network?
Brenda: You did.
Lindsay: Okay. I don't remember. I'm done. Burn on, but not out. Thank you! [applause]