Episode 136: Athlete Comebacks, NCAA Volleyball, and NCAA Soccer
This week, Amira, Lindsay, and Jessica talk about what sports we are currently watching (and also, the firing of Ron Rivera, 90-Day Fiance, and more!) [7:56] before talking about athlete comeback stories that have stuck with us and/or inspired us over the years. [27:49]
Then we have TWO interviews for you this week. First, Amira chats with former national team volleyball player and current TV analyst, Salima Rockwell, about the women’s collegiate volleyball postseason. [51:42] Then Lindsay interviews former US Women’s National Team soccer star Lori Lindsey about the outcome of the Women’s College Cup, the biggest takeaways from this college women’s soccer season, and the national team’s evolution since she was on the 2011 World Cup squad. [1:08:37]
Of course, you’ll hear the Burn Pile, [1:17:09] the Bad Ass Woman of the Week segment, starring Becca Meyers, [1:20:09] and what is good in our worlds.
Links
Our thoughts are with former guest and friend of the show Jen Ramos, who was in a terrible car accident. We encourage anyone who’s able to support her and her family via Gofundme: https://www.gofundme.com/f/drunk-driver-casualties-helping-a-couple
Skip Bayless’ wife, Ernestine Sclafani, writes book for parters of sports fans: https://www.newsday.com/sports/media/skip-bayless-wife-ernestine-sclafani-book-1.39160644
Atlanta Dream co-owner and Republican Kelly Loeffler to serve in the U.S. Senate: https://www.swishappeal.com/2019/12/5/20996316/wnba-atlanta-dream-owner-kelly-loeffler-georgia-senator-us-senate
49ers suspend analyst for remarks on Ravens' Lamar Jackson: https://edition.cnn.com/videos/sports/2019/12/05/49ers-suspend-tim-ryan-over-lamar-jackson-remarks-vpx
Megan Rapinoe Wins Ballon d’Or as World’s Best Player: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/sports/soccer/megan-rapinoe-wins-ballon-dor.html
ANNE VAN DAM SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDS TITLE IN SPAIN: https://www.lpga.com/news/2019-anne-van-dam-successfully-defends-title
The 100 best female footballers in the world 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2019/dec/03/the-100-best-female-footballers-in-the-world-2019
11 year-old Charlotte Nebres cast as the first Black “Marie” for the New York City ballet’s production of The Nutcracker: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/04/us/charlotte-nebres-nyc-ballet-nutcracker-trnd
Michelle Wie joins CBS Sports: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/michelle-wie-trevor-immelman-joining-cbs-sports-as-network-continues-overhaul
Rayadas de Monterrey defeated the Tigres UANL to win the Liga MX Femenil: https://www.fmfstateofmind.com/2019/12/7/21000687/2019-liga-mx-femenil-final-match-recap-monterrey-1-tigres-uanl-0
Ex-Team Canada star Kaillie Humphries wins debut bobsled race with U.S.: https://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/ex-team-canada-star-kaillie-humphries-wins-debut-bobsled-race-with-u-s
Hazara Woman Bags Gold In Karate At South Asian Games: https://nayadaur.tv/2019/12/hazara-woman-bags-gold-in-karate-at-south-asian-games
Transcript
Jessica: Welcome to Burn It All Down, the feminist sports podcast you need. I’m Jessica Luther, freelance journalist and author in Austin, Texas. On today’s show I’m joined by Amira Rose Davis, a traveler, birthday aficionado, and assistant professor of history and African American studies at Penn State University. And Lindsay Gibbs, the creator of Power Plays, a no bullshit newsletter about sexism in sport that arrives right into your inbox three days a week. Go sign up!
Before we get going, I have a few things. First, thank you to everyone who participated in our giveaway for the Bend It Like Beckham: The Musical tickets.
Second, we were all devastated this week to hear about former guest, an early guest on Burn It All Down, Jen Ramos, who was in a terrible car accident a little while ago. Jen lost their husband, and they are still in the hospital with extensive injuries. We’ll put a link to the Gofundme set up by Jen’s family in our show notes.
Finally, I want to say thank you to our patrons whose support of this podcast through our ongoing Patreon campaign make Burn It All Down possible. We are forever and always grateful. If you’d like to become a patron, it’s easy. Go to patreon.com/burnitalldown.
On today’s show we are going to talk about our favorite athlete comeback stories, before we get not one but two interviews this week. Amira chats with former national team volleyball player and current TV analyst Salima Rockwell about the women’s volleyball postseason and what to watch for. And then Lindsay interviews former US women’s national team soccer star Lori Lindsey about the outcome of the women’s college cup, the biggest takeaways from this college women’s soccer season, and the national team’s evolution since she was on the 2011 world cup squad.
We’ll cap off today’s show by burning things that deserve to be burned, doing shoutouts to women who deserve shoutouts, and telling you what is good in our worlds. But first, before we get into all of that I wanted to catch up with y’all and see what sports you are watching these days. I feel like the intros there about the interviews might give a little bit away! What have you guys been paying attention to? Amira, what’ve you been into?
Amira: Yeah, both the postseasons for the women’s college cup in soccer, as well as college volleyball. I just got back from a Penn State game last night, which was exciting as always. They’re heading to the sweet sixteen. And also hockey: the Bruins are playing well, unlike many other teams, and the Celtics are surprisingly playing well, and when those two teams are playing well, every time I get a notification that a game is on I tend to watch it. So I’ve been watching more hockey and NBA than I did, say, last year.
Jessica: Oh, that’s cool. I got it, okay. I feel like you’re probably watching the NFL?
Amira: Oh yeah, well not…Honestly, no, because they’re pissing me off.
Jessica: Oh, oh!
Amira: Well the NFL always pisses me off but the Patriots particularly have no offense, and it’s irritating. Part of it is that I’ve been traveling, so I have just missed games, but for instance, last week I was at something that I didn’t really need to be at, but I stayed and talked and occasionally checked the Patriots chatroom on my phone, which was imploding.
Jessica: [Laughing] That’s not funny, I just love your fandom.
Lindsay: Isn’t the team still 10 and 2 or something?
Jessica: Yeah.
Amira: Yeah, they’re doing terrible. They’re awful. They can’t throw the ball to anybody! It’s so bad.
Lindsay: Yeah, I can’t. I can’t even. I will say, I have not been watching the NFL because I am just in deep, deep in my feelings about-
Jessica: The Panthers are in free fall!
Amira: Yeah.
Lindsay: -about the Cam Newton stuff. I am just so deep in my feelings.
Amira: They let go of Ron [Rivera]. How are you feeling?
Lindsay: It’s a lot. I mean, I think it was football-wise time for him to move on, and kind of the logic of not wanting to do the coaching search behind his back, you know, like in the same building, at this point in the year. But it’s hard, he is a really good guy…In a sport where it can sometimes be hard to find really great guys. He’s meant a lot to the team, he’s meant a lot to North Carolina, he’s been with them so long. His exit was really classy, and seeing the players talk about him and how much he meant to them. You know, the way he embraced Eric Reid…I realize, like Shireen always says, don’t give cookies. But he really did…
Jourdan Rodrigue, who is a writer at The Athletic, had a story about how he has a constitution, like a pocket constitution in his office that he bought after signing Eric Reid, so he could have better conversations about everything. Not in a “I’m tearing you down, Eric Reid” way, like an “I want to be better informed” way. Just a really good guy. I’m gonna miss him. I’m gonna be so mad if they trade Cam Newton which seems to be what they’re gonna do.
Amira: Well it’s okay because they’re gonna trade Tom Brady too, so…
Lindsay: I just, I don’t know if I can root for this team without Cam Newton right now, and I’ve been a Panthers fan since ’96 so that’s way before Cam Newton time. I’m just having a really hard time with the Cam Newton stuff.
But I am watching women’s college basketball. I haven’t gotten into men’s college basketball yet, though. I’ll start to pay attention in January to my Tar Heels more. But this is kind of a time where I don’t have much to watch on a regular basis, like I don’t feel too bad for not being daily involved in college basketball yet.
Jessica: Yeah. Same.
Lindsay: And since football’s not captivating me, I’m spending a lot of time watching my winter sport, which is Lifetime Christmas movies.
Amira: Yeah!
Jessica: Same.
Amira: I’ve been thinking about both of you, because I watched Noelle on Disney+ or whatever.
Lindsay: Ooh!
Amira: And I was like, this is the type of shit my co-hosts like!
Jessica: Yep. 100%. I will own it.
Amira: I’ve been watching mostly 90 Day Fiancé because-
Lindsay: Oh, I watched that last night!
Amira: Oh my gosh, these people!
Lindsay: Did you see the guy whose religion was “aliens”?
Amira: YES! That was the funniest thing I’ve ever seen. She was just like, shaking her head. He was like, “I believe in a higher civilization!”
Lindsay: Like aliens!
Amira: Like aliens. And he needs to tell her about her credit card debt! I can’t with this show. The way individual people use the power of the state in interpersonal relationships, like, oh my god. It stresses me out, but I can’t look away!
Lindsay: Oh, it’s fascinating.
Jessica: That’s amazing. Wow. We’re going to maybe have to do a segment about that.
Amira: Oh my god, you’re speaking my language.
Jessica: Because then I’ll have a really good excuse to watch it.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Jessica: I will say that one of the reasons that I asked you guys to talk about this at the top of the show was because I haven’t, I feel like I haven’t been watching sports. This time of year is so busy, but I will say, I will admit to…I almost never watch football, everyone knows this, I feel like I say it all the time. I watched, on purpose, I turned on TV to watch the 49ers play the Baltimore Ravens last weekend.
Amira: Mm-hmm. (affirmative)
Lindsay: Yeah!
Jessica: Because I heard about Lamar Jackson, and I knew the 49ers were doing well. It was a spectacular game. It was the kind of football game that almost made me angry at football, because I was like, I like this too much, and I don’t want to like the sport anymore! So I had a blast watching that, and no one tell me anything about Lamar Jackson, ever, I just want to watch him play football. It’s so fun, and I’m so nervous and cynical about the sport.
Alright, well great, that was all very fun, and now we’re going to move onto the show.
Amira, will you please get us started on comebacks?
Amira: Sure. Well, you may remember a player by the name of Carmelo Anthony.
Jessica: Who?!
Lindsay: Stay Melo!
Amira: Right, we haven’t seen him play in the NBA since I guess November 2018, so over a year ago, where if you remember he was briefly on the Huston Rockets and when I say ‘brief’ I mean like, ten games later, they both were like, nah, this isn’t working. So he’s been out of basketball for a year, and many people wrote him off, decided his career was done. Fans joked that the NBA was giving him a farewell tour, he just didn’t realize it. But after a year. Carmelo Anthony has returned to basketball. If you were on Twitter when it was announced that he was joining the Trailblazers, there were lovely memes, a lot of jokes, but I think it’s really interesting to have somebody that meant so much to the game now come back. He’s a bit older, he’s 35, he’s dealt with some injuries, but he’s back and he’s on the Trailblazers on a non-guaranteed contract. As much as the NBA has wanted to talk about what this means for the Trailblazers, or what this means for the NBA, what this means for Melo’s legacy…
Those are great questions. But we’re not an NBA podcast, and instead I want to talk to you about what other comebacks of people have been most inspiring to you, or most fascinating? I think that athletes go through so much that we don’t see, whether it’s mental health or physical wellbeing, or just other things in life that come up, and we just kind of see when they pop back on the scene, and I would love to have a conversation about what are some comebacks that have been meaningful to you. Who’s been your Melo?
Jessica: Yeah, that’s a great question. I did the thing I always do when prepping for something like this, just Googling lists of athletes-
Lindsay: Yes!
Jessica: -to like, remind myself, because I’m not the kind of brain that can hold it all. One of the things that was almost terrible what that I would find these lists, and it would have these athletes, and multiple of them would have Youtube videos that had warnings on them, “Warning: graphic injury,” you know? I was like, gosh. And so one that I was going to start with was Paul George from the NBA, because every time that he came up it was like, “Warning! Warning!” because he had this amazing 2013-2014 for the Indiana Pacers, they went back to back at the Eastern Conference finals and he just had this really freak, weird injury where he stepped wrong during a scrimmage for the FIBA basketball world cup…Just like, his knee. I didn’t watch the video and I’m not going to describe it, but it’s described everywhere as absolutely horrific and he missed almost the entire 2014-2015 season because of it, and then returned in all-star form in 2015-2016.
I just find these kind of injuries to be amazing. I think of James Blake in tennis, who had that freak thing where he fell and hit the back of his head on the post that holds the net and took a bunch of time off and I found it just incredibly inspiring when he was…just to be back on the court, right? When these people have these real shitty, freaky accidents while they’re doing the sport that they do. So that’s where I was going to start. How about you, Lindsay?
Lindsay: Yeah, I agree. First of all, I don’t know how you mentally, after suffering something so flukey on the court, and so traumatic, how you just go back. Because there’s no guarantee that it won’t happen again, and I just, mentally, that is not the only reason why I’m not a pro athlete! But my goodness. I just cannot even imagine the trauma that is involved in this. I always think about skiers, I feel like every skier has obviously just had these traumatic crashes and we think about what Lindsey Vonn did, you know, coming back and having to miss the 2014 Olympics and coming back and being able to ski in 2018. Stuff like that is always really inspiring to me. But maybe it’s because I was trying to come up with a lot of stories for women’s sports because a lot of these lists just exclude women’s sports entirely.
Jessica: Men, men, men!
Lindsay: But a lot of them do involve pregnancy and women taking time off for pregnancy. Kim Clijsters is the predominant example of seeing her come back from her first pregnancy and winning the US Open, her second tournament back! That’s the type of comeback that we will never see. Ever again. That was just…That was otherworldly. But it was still incredibly inspirational. I will never forget, I was in my early/mid twenties and not even thinking about kids at all at that time in my life, but seeing her with her daughter there celebrating the US Open with her daughter Jada, I was just like wow, this is emotional.
And we’ve seen lots of great examples in basketball of course, women giving birth and coming back. DeWanna Bonner just did it amazingly after having twins-
Amira: The bobbleheads! The bobbleheads!
Lindsay: Yeah. She was on the All Star team a year after having twins. That’s ridiculous. Candace Parker did it and became MVP again, and so there’s a lot of examples there. And then of course, we have Serena. I mean, we have to talk about Serena. Her first comeback where she had had these back to back things where she stepped on glass and slit her foot at a restaurant, and then she had the blood clot, and then she came back after that and won so many majors. And now of course she’s having another comeback after having a baby.
Jessica: And almost dying.
Lindsay: And almost dying that time, yeah. I mean, she’s twice almost died, and then come back to make some finals.
Jessica: That’s wild.
Lindsay: It’s mind-boggling.
Amira: We should also shout out Venus.
Lindsay: Venus! Yes.
Jessica: Yes, yes.
Amira: To think about the reign that both of them have had, but also knowing that Venus is doing it with Sjögren…I can never say it. Sjögren’s syndrome. It’s wild. It is. So, when Lindsay was talking about pregnancy and women’s sports, it made me think about one of the people historically that I always think about, it’s so interesting because it’s actually kind of the reverse. So we all know the story of Wilma Rudolph, and usually when she’s brought up it’s about how she overcame childhood polio, and that was certainly true and amazing. This is a girl who didn’t walk til she was 12, and at 15 wins her first Olympic medal. Yeah, I know. So, 15, she wins her first Olympic medal, but what we really know her for is three gold medals in the 1960 Olympics in Rome.
What is lesser known about her is that just a year and some change before that the actually secretly gave birth to a child as a senior in high school. So it’s this interesting thing where a lot of people, you know, the narrative that the press spun at the time about Wilma Rudolph was that she overcame childhood polio, and I’m always thinking like, and she secretly had a baby literally a year out, she missed the ’59 Pan Am Games. When asked about why she wasn’t there he coach and everybody was like oh, she has the flu!
Jessica: Oh my gosh. Hell of a flu!
Amira: Yeah, exactly. Nine month flu with an adorable baby girl at the end of it. So yeah, I think about that. When I also think about comebacks, I think of course of comebacks that have been dramatized, like Bethany Hamilton. So if you’ve seen Soul Surfer, Bethany Hamilton survived a shark attack in 2003 and her left arm was bitten off entirely, and she was back on the board in three weeks. And a year later became national champion again in surfing. That’s extraordinary, and she’s worked to give a lot of visibility to differently abled people in sport and I find that really captivating.
I also think about some of the comebacks that we don’t see, exactly. We have some sense of it…I’m thinking a lot here about Ali Krieger. A lot of people talked about Ali Krieger’s almost two year absence from the national team, and many people were surprised when she was named to this world cup roster, and a lot of the narrative about her was set in comebacks over injuries, her ACL, her MCL, and just age and time away from the sport. But she shared…There’s a good Tribune article that she’s written about this as well, called I’m Good Right Now. But when she was a college player here at Penn State she had a really frightening knee injury that took her out for the season, but she was still traveling with the team, and one night she was feeling really out of breath and she had been feeling kind of fatigued. She couldn’t even make it across the room without needing to sit down. And so she decided to go and get it looked at because she was like, “I”m in shape, this shouldn’t be happening.”
It turns out that she had blood clots that had traveled from her injury and worked their way up to her heart, and she had a pulmonary embolism, and doctors said if she hadn’t come in that night, if she had just decided to go to bed instead, she might not have woken up. So she was up here at the hospital and ended up being comforted by her coach, the surgeon, the AD, the medical staff on the team, and the dean of the school, who basically surrounded her because they weren’t sure she was going to make it through the night. I think about that, and I think about some of these less visible comebacks, whether they’re medical or personal issues in lives that we don’t necessarily even see, that aren’t rendered visible. I think about how, this story, she’s starting to tell it because of her return to the national team.
Jessica: Yeah. I wanted to mention one of my favorite people to talk about all the time, anytime I will have a conversation with you about this guy. Ricky Williams, who I find endlessly fascinating, and I interviewed for an article a few years ago…I don’t even know when, 2013? It was a long time ago now. And he’s such a character, he’s just an interesting person to think about, and he’s an interesting thinker himself. He played for the University of Texas, there’s a giant statue, they have this new hall of fame kind of thing in the stadium here, and I swear it’s like a 12-foot statue of Ricky Williams. He won the Heisman, incredible running back, drafted fifth in the 1999 NFL draft, New Orleans Saints, he kind of bounced around. He always had trouble, he didn’t like to do interviews, he would wear his helmet during them.
He had, my understanding was, intense social anxiety, and he was very good in his first go around with the NFL, but then he started failing drug tests, and then retired instead of dealing with the suspensions from them. There’s a really great 30 For 30 about him called Run Ricky Run, where the film director followed him to, I want to say Australia, I’m trying to remember. But then he came back after this huge break, and one of the things I love about Run Ricky Run is that they have these two shots where the first time when he retires people are burning his jersey, they’re so angry at him, and they find…I want to say, the same people, because Ricky comes back and he is great. He becomes a thousand yard running back for the Dolphins in 2009 and he’s 32 years old. And the same people are in the parking lot of the stadium cheering for him, the exact same people! And so I just find him such an interesting…People didn’t know what to make of him, he was confusing, he wasn’t letting them in, he was failing drug tests, we have all these feelings about that. And then he disappears, he comes back, he’s amazing, and everyone’s like, “Forgiven!” I just find everything about that to be so interesting.
And then I feel like we just can’t have a conversation about comebacks in sport if we don’t mention Monica Seles. She was a remarkably amazing tennis player in the early 1990s, she was young, she was winning all these grand slams, and then there was this horrific…I watched it again, I don’t know why, it felt like punishing myself almost. But on April 30th 1993, she was sitting courtside at a tennis match and a man just came up through the stands and stabbed her in the back with a 9-inch long knife. You don’t actually see the attack in the video that exists, because they had cut away, but you hear her yell. It’s a horrible sound and then she just kind of stumbles around on court, she’s grabbing her back, and then she just falls down, they go to take care of her.
It took her two years to come back, and she was never quite the same player, I mean she was such a remarkable player to begin with, that to return with that level would’ve been ridiculous no matter what. But she won a fourth Australian Open in 1996 after coming back, and everything about that takes my breath away, just to even think about going through. When we talk about freak injuries in sport and coming back, but to be stabbed on court where you play…There’s a whole other level of security in tennis now because of Monica Seles and what happened to her. That’s why it’s such a big deal when someone runs onto the court.
Lindsay: In any sport, yeah.
Jessica: In any sport, yes, of course. And so, Lindsay?
Lindsay: Yeah, I think what’s interesting about comebacks is the wide range, right? We started…honestly, compared to most of these stories, the Carmelo story is nothing!
Amira: Right. Right.
Jessica: Yeah!
Lindsay: We kind of started with a more ‘nobody believes in me’ kind of comeback, or ‘am I too old,’ versus epic comebacks from injuries, or childbirth, or things like that. But I think that’s the thing about sports, is how no matter what is keeping you off the court or from being your best, it’s equally hard to get back, right? There can be appreciation for everyone’s journey. I think about the Mystics and the comeback stories that were on that team this year and won the WNBA championship, I feel like you could write a comeback narrative for pretty much everybody on that team, based on little or big. I mean, you had Delle Donne’s comebacks just from within the season, you know? Coming back from her injuries to play in that. You have her whole arc of coming back from burnout, she stopped, she went to UConn, she was there for two days and left and spent her freshman year of college playing volleyball at the University of Delaware before going back to basketball, and even then she played at Delaware, she didn’t play at one of the big schools. And she has lyme disease, and you name it, she’s had to come back from it.
LaToya Sanders, I think, is one of the best stories in sports, period. She spent five years away from the WNBA. She had injuries and her dad died and she wanted to spend her summers taking care of her family. Everybody had forgotten about her and Coach Thibault had her, the Mystics had the rights to her still, the contract. She returned, and once she returned she had anemia! All last season she was diagnosed with anemia, and was getting blood transfusions every single day, and going through all this, and this year she’s a starting center on the WNBA Championship team. All those little stories, they just feel like everybody, they take such perseverance to be an elite athlete. There are so many stories. I do have to mention, now completely switching gears, but I know he’s a controversial topic here, but Tiger Woods’ comeback story. It’s a great comeback story!
Jessica: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I was thinking about that too. It really is.
Lindsay: He’s had so many back surgeries! He didn’t win anything for ten years, and then he wins the Masters. That’s inspiring.
Jessica: Yeah, it’s incredible. Amira.
Amira: Thank you guys for this conversation, I really enjoyed it. I wanna mention different types of comebacks, just to wrap it up. I think one of the things you see with these stories is that there’s so much work that goes into returning to form or trying to get back on the court, and sometimes it doesn’t work. Sometimes you don’t return. But I think that it’s really important to think about how you can make a comeback in life, in reinvention, whatever it is. While I was looking at all these injuries I couldn’t help thinking about my good friend, my best friend’s husband Brandon Hughes, who had a six year career in the NFL and that last year of his career was injury-plagued, as many are, including a really freak injury where it was a standard kind of pile up in practice the day before the season started, and when he came up his hand was shattered. For many months there he just didn’t know what was next or what his body would allow him to do, and it has been a fight and a struggle and he ended up retiring, but the first year after that he said, “My body’s never felt better.”
Him and my best friend opened a gym in lower Bucks County, in Fairless Hills, Levittown area, called Fuel House, which now is one of the most successful gyms there. Every time I watch how far that gym has grown and how he’s reinvented himself and moved to the next chapter of his life, and training other athletes, training people to pursue professional sports or collegiate sports, or just get back in shape after having a baby, or whatever it is. I think that that’s its own type of comeback. I think that even in your own lives, if you’re at a moment of crossroads, or you’re overcoming adversity, or you’re moving through a hard transition to the next chapter…Every time I get a newsletter from Lindsay for Power Plays, I think that that’s a wonderful new chapter and comeback of sorts. So I just want to shout out everybody who’s staging their own personal comebacks in their lives, even if we don’t ever see return to professional form on a court or get back into the NBA like Melo, I’m constantly in awe watching the perseverance of others.
Jessica: Up first, Amira’s interview with Salima Rockwell about NCAA volleyball.
Amira: It is now my immense pleasure to chat with Salima Rockwell. Salima Rockwell is volleyball royalty, she had a standout career at Penn State, also coached for Penn State and down in Texas with the Longhorns. She also is calling games for Longhorns network, the Big Ten network. She works at ESPN and other affiliates. It’s her first year of calling volleyball games, and so as we look to the sweet sixteen I thought of nobody else who would be better equipped to take us through what has been happening in the world of volleyball and what to look for this coming weekend. Salima, welcome to Burn It All Down.
Salima: Thank you very much, thanks for having me. I really appreciate being here.
Amira: Yes, so we can just dive right in. For folks who weren’t watching last weekend there were upsets, there’s immense parity in the world of volleyball right now, there’s some surprises entering the sweet sixteen. What were you watching this weekend? What stood out to you, what games should we have been watching if we missed them?
Salima: Oh man, it was crazy last weekend. It was an interesting first two rounds of volleyball, and I think it’s a testament to just how much the sport has grown and how good so many teams are now. There are young players that are not just being recruited by the traditional top teams, the Stanfords and Penn States…Texas and Nebraska, a lot of these programs that you haven’t necessarily heard of are doing well and making it to the tournament, doing well in the first and second rounds.
One of the ones that stands out is San Diego, San Diego played Washington State which was an absolutely brutal first round matchup, San Diego won in a fourth setter, but it was a good match to watch. I knew it’d be a tough one to move forward, but a huge one. And there were just some real battles. I could talk about all of them, quite frankly, but in the second round…I’ll get to the most interesting one last, but Creighton takes Minnesota to five, it was an absolute barn burner, and I think everyone thought it could be a battle, but it was all over. They were absolutely taking it to Minnesota. Minnesota pulled it out last minute, and ended up winning in five, super exciting match there. The other match that was a similar situation…Well, first of all I’ll talk about Cincinnati, came in as one of the top teams all season, their RPI, they’re one of the top 3-4 RPI all year, top ranked and top five all year long. A lot of them were expecting them to potentially host the regional, and yet from fourth seed, they ended up at the sixth seed, but still one of the top teams. Cincinnati came in and won, complete surprise, upset, crazy match.
I think the craziest thing a lot of people may not know is Jordan Thompson who’s their big main player, she played on the US national team this summer and was playing in the opposite position, and man, when I saw her play…She’s going to be one of the best opposites this country has ever seen. Big gun in Jordan Thompson for Cincinnati, they have other pieces, they have a balance, but she can and did take over that match.
Amira: Yeah! So now it’s set up a very interesting slate of games for the sweet sixteen, and I guess we could start with Cincinnati in looking at the Stanford regional. So the Stanford regional part of the bracket, for those who don’t know, will feature Utah versus #3 Stanford, Stanford is obviously hosting this side of the bracket. And then also we’ll see Cincinnati in action versus Penn State, who is currently ranked #11. So obviously we can start with that match first. I know that a lot of people are anticipating another Penn State showdown, as we’ve talked about earlier in the pod, Pitt upset at Penn State at home here, because I’m sitting at campus right now, but Pitt came into Penn State, into Rec Hall, and beat them for the first time in a ridiculous number of years. So I think many people were looking forward to a Penn State-Pitt matchup, instead they have Cincinnati-Penn State, so perhaps that’s a good place to start with what we’re looking at in sweet sixteen weekend. When you look at the Stanford regional what do you think about that Cincinnati-Penn State matchup and should Stanford be worried at all about Utah?
Salima: Well I think first of all, Penn State, Russ Rose everybody knows, he’s been there forever, he knows what he’s doing. He’s a smart coach and he also knows that he should be concerned about Cincinnati. That was a huge win, they’re playing really well, again, they have one of the best players the country has ever seen, and a team that’s well coached by Molly Alvey. They are a team that you need to be prepared for. Penn State, I think, certainly has the edge with the experience and the number of players they have on the court right now that are playing at a high level. If Penn State passes well and they’re able to get the ball to the middles early, and often, they’ll win. They can be successful. That’s been their formula to success all year, is establishing that. Their two big middles in Serena Gray and Kaitlyn Hord, and then being able to distribute the ball to get them a little bit more one on one, that’s where they’ll have success.
So I think Cincinnati, Jordan Thompson goes off, at some level containing her, brining her to like normal human numbers, to be able to keep them under control…I give the edge to Penn State in this, just knowing what I know about both programs. I’m certainly not saying that there could be an upset, but I think it’s gonna be an interesting one to watch.
Amira: Yeah. And shoutout to Kendall White who of course set career records here at Penn State for digs, there was a great celebration here on Saturday night, I want to shout her out. So that game is happening at 8pm on Friday, December 13th. Now the later game in that region is of course Utah vs Stanford, Stanford’s the host. Do you anticipate them having any problem with this matchup?
Salima: I do. Utah is playing well right now. I watched their last match, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen at Utah-BYU, it could’ve gone either way but I was surprised at how handily they beat BYU, it was kind of scary. In my opinion, I think Utah’s playing at a really high level can give Stanford an absolute battle, and they need to be prepared. I still think Stanford, in my opinion, is the best all around team in the country this year, but I don’t think Stanford can take Utah lightly at all, because they’re playing at a super high level.
Amira: Awesome. Let’s move to the region where you’re located, in Austin. We have Louisville taking on #2 Texas at 4pm, and then Florida who’s ranked #10 will see Minnesota who’s #7, so that looks like a very tough matchup for Minnesota. But we can start with Louisville and Texas; Texas has had a phenomenal year and obviously you’ve had a front row seat to a lot of that. What are your thoughts heading in to this game?
Salima: It’s interesting, the one thing that I didn’t mention about last weekend, Texas ended up going 5 with UC Santa Barbara who was unbelievable last weekend, just running this fast, crazy offense. Texas was able to pull it out and win that match, and it was huge for Texas to be able to toughen up and win those last two sets, but it was also showing some of their vulnerabilities. So I think with the Texas-Louisville match, Louisville lost one of their top players mid-season, actually their top attacker, and struggled a little bit right after. They found a way to start winning again and playing at a high level, but Texas in my opinion, they have more firepower from every single position at the net, they have more terminal attackers and that’s trouble. That’s trouble for teams. They can be overwhelming, overpowering, so I think Louisville’s gonna play them tough. I’m not sure that they have enough to overcome Texas.
Amira: Then as we turn to Florida and Minnesota, this looks to be, to me, it has 5 sets written all over it.
Salima: Yes, I would agree with you. Here’s the one thing though that some may or may not know: Thayer Hall, who is Florida’s top outside hitter, she didn’t play in the first two rounds at all. I’m not sure what’s going on, I don’t know, I’m not even gonna speculate, but did not play in the first round or the second round. So that’s a question mark for this weekend, that could be an interesting determination of what happens in this match against Minnesota, but all things being equal and everyone healthy and playing, this is going to be an absolute battle. Minnesota lost their setter early in the season, they’ve been running all kind of crazy offenses to try to piece together wins, and now their setter’s back, she’s doing well, they’re all-American opposites. Stephanie Samedy could be playing at a high level, very very polished right now, looking very good.
Florida with Thayer Hall, with Rachael Kramer, their setter Monserez, they have so many great pieces so I think it’s gonna be a battle at the net between two powerhouses. I’m not sure what’s gonna happen, I’m giving the edge to Minnie, but that’s what I’m thinking. If both teams are healthy I agree with you, a 5 set battle, gonna be a fun match to watch this weekend.
Amira: Yes. So now we jump over to Madison. Texas A&M #13 is at Wisconsin, the 2pm game, and then Hawai’i will face off against Nebraska #5 at 4:30pm. That Texas A&M and Wisconsin game, what are your thoughts on that one?
Salima: Well, Texas A&M has been on a role and playing well, and Coach Bird has done an amazing job with this team, and it’s been fun. I’ve seen them evolve over the course of the season, and just continue to get better. They have one of the best athletes, one of the athletes, one of the best outsides in Hollann Hans. She can disrupt some things with her serve. She’s got one of the toughest jump serves I’ve seen and she can just go off at the net. They have some other attackers too that are good, their liberos are really really good, so I think they’re gonna push Wisconsin, but as with Stanford I think Wisconsin is one of the most balanced and even teams that I’ve seen this season in terms of middles that are elite, setters that’s elite, so it’s gonna be a tall order for A&M to upset Wisconsin. I think they can push them, I definitely think they can push them. It’s gonna be a fun match to watch, I’m giving the edge to Wisconsin though.
Amira: And then Hawai’i vs. Nebraska, I have to say as somebody who researches the University of Hawai’i’s volleyball team in the 70s, it has been so tremendous to watch this program to have a run that we haven’t really seen from them since 2015. It’s really great that their season has been really spectacular, and so I’m thrilled that they’re here in this sweet sixteen. Now they’re facing Nebraska, what are your thoughts about how they’re going to fare versus Nebraska?
Salima: I echo all of your comments, because Robyn Ah Mow has done a fantastic job with recruiting and getting the team where she wants it to be, playing tough right now, some very good volleyball obviously, winning the conference. She was the region coach of the year, they’re doing some amazing things in Hawai’i and they were missing their top outside hitter, Jolie Rasmussen, for almost a whole season. I think since September. She’s now back which is even more exciting for them because they’ve been doing well without her, and to have her back in the mix just gives them another edge.
Nebraska has been playing at a pretty high level, they’ve been doing well, obviously we’ve seen them throughout the Big Ten and what they’ve done. I think Jazz Sweet is the X factor for them. She’s been playing extremely well on the opposite. Obviously Lauren Stivrins, she’s their all-American middle, Lexi Sun. So they have players that are good enough to win, I think you never count Nebraska out. They’re well coached, they always come prepared, they’re always playing at a high level, towards the end of the season peaking at the right time. Potentially with the recent experience Nebraska has the edge, but this could go the difference as well. I think this is gonna be a long 5 setter.
Amira: I can’t wait for this weekend. We end in Waco, which I just have to say, this part of Texas is seeing a lot of volleyball action. Certainly it’s been a standout year for the Baylor Bears, we’ll get to them in a second, they play at 2:30pm. The Kentucky-Washington match is the 2:30pm match on Friday, Kentucky ranked #9, Washington ranked #8. Is this going to be as even keeled as it seems like it will be on paper?
Salima: I actually think it will be, I do. I was gonna say, not just because they’re 8 and 9, that’s kind of where in my head all season had them both because of what they have, because Washington has their top outside hitter and Kentucky has Edmond, and their setter and Lilley. I think it’s pretty evenly matched. This might be the most exciting match. I think of all the ones that could go the distance, this one will. I’m anxious to see who’s gonna win.
Amira: Toss up!
Salima: Toss up! Maybe a little Kentucky edge?
Amira: And then that leads us to the 12pm game: Purdue #16 vs. Baylor. Now we’ve talked about it before on the pod, Baylor is on a historic run for their program: they hit the #1 spot A) in the tournament, but also just for the first time the won the Big 12 title, they beat the Longhorns for the first time since 2001, they took down Hawai’i, Wisconsin, Creighton, Yossiana Pressley is beyond phenomenal. It’s been a storybook run for the ages for this Baylor team. Do they continue that on Friday?
Salima: It has been, even in the middle of the season people are wondering are they really #1, have they earned it? They earned what they’ve done in the non-conference, they earned those wins. I called those matches, they’re playing at a high level, and then after beating Texas at home everyone’s like okay, they’re legit. This is no joke. Which has been kind of fun to see, and they have continued to get better. They were in a little bit of a lull, I think, in that middle to last third of the Big 12 season. There was winning, but Pressley’s numbers weren’t as good as they were, but they look healthy. She looks like the Energizer bunny. She will never stop jumping, like she gets higher towards the end of the match. So they’re playing well, they’re playing at a high level.
So Purdue, I’ve seen them play super well, they’re a scary team. They have a lot of good pieces in Blake Mohler, Grace Cleveland, you could kind of go around the horn. They’re big, physical, they can block balls. Can they touch Pressley? That’ll be a question. Can they slow her down a little bit, enough to make a difference? Here’s another X factor, as with all these teams that are at home, I saw the Baylor match when they played Texas, having that many fans and in that environment is tough. Purdue’s not used to it because they play in the Big 10, but having that behind you at your back, I think that gives them the edge. They’re just playing so well right now but Purdue’s a scary team. They can absolutely win this match. On a neutral site I might think a little bit different, I’m not sure, but being at home I’m giving Baylor the edge.
Amira: We’re in for a good weekend! So I have to ask you two quick questions before I let you go. One, we’ve talked about some of the parity that we’ve seen especially in the women’s game over the years, but this year particularly it’s a testament to that. The other observation I have when I watch women’s college ball is how many women of color seem to be entering the sport. I’ve talked about it before on the podcast and other places that volleyball is one of the fastest growing sports for Black women in particular. I just wanted to know, with your experience, do you see that trend? Are you noticing a difference from when you were playing to now in terms of the number of women of color on the court?
Salima: Absolutely I am. When I played I could almost name them, I could name who on the national team, I could name who else in the country that was an African American playing volleyball, and now it’s just become so much more popular, and it’s growing, the sport in general. So you’re seeing a lot of people shift from even basketball or sports they have been playing, traditional sports, over to volleyball. It’s been huge. It’s been great for the community, it’s been great for young players to see their heroes, “Oh wow, she can play volleyball so I can play volleyball.” That’s it. It’s about some of that representation that allows other people to say “Wow, I can do this.” It’s not a sport that’s reserved for the rich white community, it can be played by other people. And you’re definitely seeing that growth in the game. Go through all these teams playing this weekend, you can just go through each roster and all the starting lineups, you’re going to see two or three or half, even, potentially, on some of these teams. So it’s great for the sport, it’s great for diversity, it’s great for everybody. It helps young girls that are looking up, you know, we just saw these Miss America and Miss Universe and Miss Teen, you know, there’s so much going on. When young girls say, “hey, wow, I can do this too,” you’re just going to continue to have that growth within the sport.
Amira: Yeah, it’s tremendous. And my last question, so you’ve now been part of the game as a player, as a coach, and now you’re calling the game. Is it different this way? How are you adjusting to it?
Salima: You know, it’s interesting. I miss it. I miss being in it. I love the season, I love the competition. But being able to still kind of scout teams, watch teams, being involved and not having a dog in the fight, not being stressed about who’s gonna win is kind of nice. That’s different. But I also like just being connected to all the people that I know in volleyball. That’s been pretty cool. Getting on conference calls before matches and having people just know who I am, know they can trust me when having conversations or when speaking freely about their team, has been kind of cool. I’ve built some relationships that I maybe didn’t have just as a peer before, but now just having this type of communication with a lot of these coaches has been pretty cool.
I’m enjoying watching more volleyball, having the time to watch volleyball outside of my own little world has been pretty cool, and seeing more of the country and seeing a broader pail of volleyball has been pretty cool! I enjoy it.
Amira: That’s awesome. What games will you be calling this weekend?
Salima: So I’m doing all the games in the Austin region. I’m doing the Texas-Louisville match, and then the Minnesota-Florida match on Friday, and then on Saturday the winners.
Amira: Awesome! So you guys can all catch the matches, they’re on ESPNW, ESPN 3, and then the regional finals will all happen on Saturday at 4pm, 6pm, 8pm and 10pm, all times Eastern. And that will be featured on ESPNU. Check out the Austin regional to hear Salima’s call of the matches. Salima, I can’t thank you enough for coming on Burn It All Down. Best of luck in the sweet sixteen!
Salima: Thank you so much! I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Jessica: Next: Lindsay’s interview with Lori Lindsey about NCAA soccer.
Lindsay: Hi everyone, Lindsay here! Here with Lori Lindsey, former US women’s national team player and current broadcaster extraordinaire for the NWSL, MLS, everywhere, right Lori? I keep wanting to call you Lindsey!
Lori: It’s going to be confusing for everybody. Yeah, that’s correct, that’s awesome.
Lindsay: Well thank you so much for being on Burn It All Down, we have been dying to have you on so I’m glad we were able to make up an excuse for it.
Lori: Thanks for having me, this is wonderful. I love your podcast.
Lindsay: That’s so cool to hear. So first of all, let’s start off by talking about this soccer cup that we had over the weekend. We had Stanford take down my Tar Heels…
Lori: Your Tar Heels! Oh no.
Lindsay: I’m from North Carolina, I didn’t go there but I grew up a big Tar Heels fan. But they took them down in penalty kicks, it was a pretty excruciating game to watch, it was physical, it was tense til the very end. At the end of the day it was Kate Meyer, goalie, star for Stanford, literally zipping her mouth, turning the lock and throwing it away-
Lori: It was awesome.
Lindsay: -to shun the haters. I think we all instantly became fans of hers. What were your thoughts from that game, any surprises?
Lori: You know, no surprises really. I think that’s exactly what we’d expect from two of the top teams, the two best teams arguably in the country, matching up. Going into that game you knew it was going to be North Carolina with the subbing that they do, the disruptive-type play. They were going to try to make it difficult for Stanford and Stanford knew that. And they did. Credit to North Carolina, they made it difficult and it wasn’t til the second half when you started to see Stanford stringing some possession together and starting to take control of the game, but North Carolina just holding in strong and forcing the penalty kicks.
I love the Kate Meyer moment. That’s exactly what I want to see. And I was reading something, and I agree with this watching the game last night, I was reading something this morning that typically we see the finals midday on a Sunday, and the fact that it was an 8:30 start time for the east coast and just more of a night game, I think gave it…I’m gonna use the word pizzaz, I don’t know if that’s the right word but a little something more, right? The excitement of the game, and then the quality of the game, I think you see in my opinion an elevation of the women’s game on all levels. So, one of the more exciting finals I’ve seen.
Lindsay: Yeah. And it was so cool because the production value was really high, which was unfortunately not something we got throughout the tournament. I was disappointed throughout the tournament as a whole. It was hard to find some of the broadcasts. I remember seeing a really great goal that you couldn’t really see because there was a tent in the way…This was in the second or third round! This should not be happening.
Lori: Yeah, after the conference play it’s a little bit difficult because you’re in the midst of like, basketball has started, you have college football starting to get into it, it’s tough. So not all the games are the highest of quality leading up to the college cup. But yeah, the broadcast I thought was fabulous, between Jen and Julie and everybody behind the scenes. I really enjoyed it and it really just showed, again, the elevation, and really showing the personalities that are starting to come out on the women’s side, right? With Kate Meyer in goal making the huge save and then showing her personality. We gotta honor that, that’s amazing. I love it. And of course they’re always going to be people out there like, “Oh, what’s this!” No, this is amazing! This is exactly what you want to see.
Lindsay: Anytime you’re making men mad you know you’re doing something right. Anytime I wake up and there’s an argument about sports and ladylike behavior, I know that somebody’s done something right.
Lori: It’s a whole other discussion, but when I was doing Sirius XM stuff for the World Cup, after the first game against Thailand there’s all men calling in about how many goals we scored and how the behavior was just “obnoxious” and I’m like…Let’s stop having the men call in. We don’t need to hear any more of your opinions.
Lindsay: Literally nobody asked you.
Lori: Like, that’s enough, okay!
Lindsay: So from this, I know you did broadcasting for ACC this season right, what were your takeaways from this college season besides Stanford’s win at the end? And are there any players that you have your eye on for the next level?
Lori: It’ll be exciting because there’s actually a few starting today, going into our women’s national team, Vlatko just called in a number of players that were on the world cup team. If I remember correctly, there’s ten players going in from the college ranks, which is massive. So some will fly right from that Stanford-UNC game. In particular I think you’re starting to see…And not from all teams because it’s a short season, but you’re starting to see the best picture of where the game’s headed. You’re starting to see more sophistication amongst the players. My biggest takeaways would be tactically, which nobody wants to hear-
Lindsay: Of course we do!
Lori: It would be there’s more sophistication, and there’s not enough sophistication, and I think I highlighted, okay, we’re starting to see some teams really wanting to play depending on what college you go to and what they focus on. But you’re starting to see some teams play, some player’s personalities come out, and then I think particularly in the ACC we found possession-oriented teams, but because of that, if the bottom half of teams couldn’t keep up with that they’d just sit back, and we don’t have enough sophistication to be able to break that down. Going towards the next level that’s something we need to focus on, which I do think Vlatko will be a huge piece to that from his tactical understanding, getting these players’ tactical knowledge and sophistication to the next level. As you start to see…It’s a whole other argument about whether or not the rest of the world is catching up, I personally do, we’re not just talking about our full national teams. There’s some need that other countries have caught up, or are already there, and so we’re going to need that piece of sophistication as the years go on, quite frankly.
Lindsay: Yeah. And that’s been a criticism of the Tar Heels throughout the years, right, that they are more physical, it’s not as focused on skill as a lot of people would like. I think a lot of people were seeing that for the first time in the game last night. And with some of those calls, or non-calls, as we saw. People were like, “What is this sport! This looks different.”
Lori: Yeah, I called a number of the North Carolina games, and one thing about it is that consistently every year they show up, and credit to Anson in terms of getting the most out of his players whether you like their style or not. That was one thing that we constantly discussed with him on broadcast calls, like what is up with the subbing, right, this is like, “Everybody off!”
Lindsay: Everybody gets minutes, yeah.
Lori: “I want to play all the players that I recruit.” And like okay, you can’t argue with that. I mean the argument would be are these players learning how to play a full 90 minutes and manage an actual soccer game? Probably not, right? But there’s other pieces that they’re learning that will help them at the next level.
So in terms of players, I think Maycee Bell sticking with UNC. And listen, Stanford, there’s some phenomenal players, they’re going into this next camp and it’ll be about maturing and growth. I think Maycee Bell could potentially make a huge impact right away, on the back line at the next level. One player in particular that I’m interested in is the midfielder Brianna Pinto. Her skill set’s interesting as a midfielder, and she’s one of the ones that needs to learn how to manage the game a little bit better, but I’ll be excited to see what she can do if she can handle and manage the game.
Lindsay: Yeah, I like that. We talked a lot about personality, and seeing these personalities shine, and do you think that the women’s world cup this year kind of impacted that? Do you think that’s carrying over any to the college level, that we’re seeing any…Like since on the national team we’re seeing more personality shine, that that’s bleeding over?
Lori: Yeah, and I think we’re seeing that in society as well. Like women, enough’s enough, right? What the hell have we been doing? Well, not “what have we been doing,” you can tell, societally, keeping us quiet, right? It’s just like, listen, I want to express how I feel about this game, and my emotions. I think hearing Megan Rapinoe blowing up with all the awards, and today it came out that she was Sports Illustrated’s Athlete of the Year, which is phenomenal.
One thing that stuck with me the most out of that world cup was actually after that Thailand game, right, it was like you wanna criticize us for how many goals we scored, you wanna criticize us for how we celebrate goals, but the matter of the fact is this isn’t like a three week period or year long lead up to us winning these games or building up to that first game in the world cup. These are lifetime dreams of players. Some of these players its their first time, right? You’re playing in a national championship last night, you save what ended up being a game winning penalty kick, you’re going to celebrate that. Celebrate how you want. Go back to the celebration of the, excuse me if I forget, was it the Nigerian players?
Lindsay: Yeah.
Lori: Yeah, like we want to criticize how their culture, how they show emotion, there’s no one way. Enough.
Lindsay: Enough!
Lori: Show emotion and enjoy, be proud of what you’re bringing to the game.
Lindsay: What’s the biggest change that you’ve noticed from…So you played in the 2011 World Cup. What is it about the culture of the team, I was talking with Ashlyn and Ali earlier last month at Athlete Ally Awards, and they were talking about how much the culture of the team has really changed in recent years. Ashlyn in particular was talking about how much more comfortable she was being herself. Did you feel, when you were back on the team, did you feel comfortable being yourself and being open and showing your personality and your individuality, or in 2011 did you feel the need to kind of conform a little bit more?
Lori: Yeah, great question. Well, I think it’s a couple of things. I think sometimes people may realize or may not realize that it’s a tough environment, not only because it’s so competitive on the field and vying for spots, but it is quite frankly one of the only ways to make money as a women’s soccer player, right? You could make that argument really around the world, and so it can be kind of a fear-driven environment because you don’t want to lose your spot, right, so there’s natural conformity to that in terms of like, “I’m going to keep my mouth shut!”
Lindsay: Yeah.
Lori: Because I want to be on this team, right. And Megan’s a great example. She kneels in support of Kaepernick and honestly it was like six months before she was brought back in, right, to play in the 2017 She Believes Cup. Megan is an interesting one to talk about, because if it’s somebody else, that doesn’t have the skill set or the high ceiling that Megan does as a player, then I don’t think we’d see them back.
Lindsay: Right.
Lori: There’s this natural, “Ehh, I’m not going to speak my truth.” So I did feel that. At the same time I think the leadership has changed a bit too. I mean, we always have to speak about Julie and Mia and Brandy and all those players before us, because they are the ones that got it, right? And understood how to push the team forward in a thoughtful way at the time. That’s why all of us have had the opportunity to be where we are and use the platform now. I think what has changed is the team, because of equal pay and equal play, all of that stuff, the team has really understood that hey, we need to come together. I think there’s some middle years where it wasn’t necessarily that it had to be the case, where you always understand that this team is about winning and it’s always the driving force, right? It was so competitive between the players.
But there was a shift, you could feel this year, about just the understanding of what this would mean to win, and I also think I have to give credit to Megan and those other players who really were wonderful, thoughtful spokesleaders of the team and the message was very clear. It wasn’t a top-down like, “I’m the leader of this team,” it was very much always “This is what we believe in, this is where we’re going,” and it’s really important. We always want to win, but it’s been even more massive right now with everything that’s going on.
Lindsay: Yeah, it’s literally not just about us.
Lori: I was trying to formulate in my head as we go…
Lindsay: No, I think that’s a great answer, because a lot of times in women’s sports, probably in any field, once the barrier gets broken it’s so easy to think that it wasn’t hard to do. You know what I mean? People lose sight of the risk that Megan took when she started to come forward, because now it’s turned out so well for her! So people are just like oh, this was easy. But the truth is that’s never…There’s so much more to it. Like you said, the stakes are so high, especially on the national team. It’s not about putting down the leaders of the past, it’s just about embracing the evolution, it’s like passing the baton and hoping that each leadership group is going to push you forward a little bit more.
Lori: That’s a good point, because I was actually going to add on that…And I said Megan’s name quite a bit too, because she’s one that was vocal, but you had Becky Sauerbrunn behind the scenes. The difference is in this context that those players have multiple years now underneath them in terms of their experience, they felt like even more selflessness, they understood the even bigger picture that was needed. It was really about rallying the team and getting all 23 players on that same page. Where in the more recent years that was a necessity, but that didn’t just have to be the total focal point, right?
Lindsay: You probably wouldn’t say this, but you’ve been a big part of that journey, as I understand, you talked to Megan about coming out, because you came out before the 2012 Games, right?
Lori: I should take all the credit.
Lindsay: Yes! I would like to…
Lori: Yeah, I think…How that really came out is that, if we’re just talking about myself and Megan, we were out. Everyone knew it, it just wasn’t out publicly. Then Megan blew up at the 2011 World Cup and her agent had been approached by Out magazine wanting to do an article about her. I’m like, do this! Do this for sure. This is your opportunity. I would do it, but Out magazine’s not asking me! Which I should be talking to them about.
Lindsay: They missed a chance there!
Lori: As a matter of fact I’m actually pissed now! So I think that was the biggest turning point. There’s such a freedom to that, right? Such a freedom to really live your truth, and we saw that, we saw Megan be the breakout star of the 2011 World Cup off the bench, and in 2012 she blew up and we haven’t looked back since.
Lindsay: We have no choice, she’s just taken over! Yeah.
Lori: I think it’s just remarkable.
Lindsay: Lori, thank you so much for being with us today. We’ll have to have you back very soon because I have a billion questions.
Lori: Yeah, please!
Lindsay: Thank you.
Jessica: Now it’s time for everyone’s favorite segment that we like to call the burn pile, where we pile up all the things we’ve hated this week in sports and set them aflame. I’m going to go first this week, because mine’s on the lighter side, and I’m in charge and it’s hard to be on the lighter side at the end of the burn pile.
Lindsay: Yeah, I’ve been in that position sometimes.
Jessica: I know! I was thinking of you. This is such a good example of terrible gendered way we as a society often talk about sports. So Skip Bayless, I feel like we should just shout ‘burn’ at his name.
Amira: Just stop there, yeah!
Jessica: Yeah, done.
Lindsay: Burn! Are we not done?
Jessica: Okay. So Skip Bayless, the screaming head from ESPN originally, I think he’s now at Fox. His wife Ernestine Sclafani has a new book, and I promise you I’m not lying, it’s called Balls. The full title though is called Balls: How to Keep Your Relationship Alive When You Live With a Sports-Obsessed Guy. Ugh. The subtitle alone makes me want to groan, I just did. But here is the description of it on her publisher’s website, quote: “You knew it when you married him. Maybe you thought he’d grow, mature, or even evolve. He didn’t. The young sports fan you dated is now the old sports fan you married.”
It goes on to say in the description the book is a look into the lives of Bayless and Sclafani and a how-to on making relationships work with a sports-obsessed man. Their advice includes, quote: “How to prioritize your free time together; Avoiding sports jinxes and superstitions; Keeping a game day “swear jar”; Finding parts of the game to enjoy when you don’t like sports; What not to say when their team loses; And most importantly, the art of compromising.”
Okay, sure. So Sclafani did an interview about the book, and she explained why she wanted to write this book, quote: “I thought, well there’s something for a book, not to teach women about sports, because I don’t care about the 40-yard line, I don’t care about any of the rules. Mine would be tips on how I’ve kept my relationship alive.” Also, quote: “It's just a craziness that the more I started getting into it I saw this whole different world guys live in. Because it becomes a religion and it becomes larger than life and they talk about their team like ‘we won’ as if they played on the team. I find it very funny.”
Sclafani also says that you don’t have to read the book if it doesn’t relate to your life, and that’s true. I’m sure there are plenty of hetero women that see themselves in this description of Bayless and Sclafani’s relationship and I’m not gonna argue for over the top fan behavior. But still, this is an exhausting book to read about! Outside of its amazingly great name, I’m here for Balls, it almost reads as a parody, right, because of how easily it slots right into these old gross stereotypes about who watches and cares about sports. Mainly that women don’t and that the men who do are absolutely the worst. It’s unoriginal, and it will for that exact reason sell books, and for that I want to burn Balls.
Group: Burn!
Jessica: Lindsay, what are you burning?
Lindsay: Okay, I’m gonna be honest and say I do not know how to pronounce her last name and I do not feel bad about it for once. Kelly Loeffler, Loe-ffer? The co-owner of the Atlanta Dream, who will be the next Republican senator in the state of Georgia. So the way this worked is one of the current Republican senators in Georgia stepped down due to health issues, so the governor got to appoint someone. So Kelly has been appointed, it’s official, she will be sworn in as senator and there’ll be a special election in November, next November.
So this is the definition of fembot white feminism, like every single thing I learn about her is more infuriating than the last. Not much has been known about her political leanings, I guess it was well known that she donated to Republican causes; I didn’t know that, I didn’t know much about her until these past couple of weeks. But she hadn’t talked much about her own political beliefs. But because of her association with the WNBA, which is of course pretty progressive, a lot of people on the right were criticizing this choice, saying that she wasn’t conservative enough. So that means that she has spent this week reiterating over and over again, “In the senate I will proudly fight for the unborn because every life is a blessing from God.”
She has been expressing her support for the border wall, she has been talking about how pro-second amendment she is, she has been saying things like “Make American great again.” This is infuriating. She has $500 million between her and her husband, so her campaign for the special election should be pretty well funded by them, and it just makes me wonder how power works, it makes me curious how the players feel about this, how those who work with her feel about this, how going so public with her beliefs is gonna change the dynamics, and how even in a league that we do think of as progressive, that as a league has sent out supportive statements for Planned Parenthood and had stood up for a lot of causes.
We don’t know who is behind the scenes at every single team making the decisions, and we don’t know the many ways that racism and sexism and homophobia are being perpetuated, even by people in positions of power within these teams and the league. This whole thing kind of makes me sick, and I just feel for the Dream players who don’t deserve this, and I want to throw it on the burn pile.
Group: Burn.
Jessica: Amira?
Amira: Yeah, so Jess mentioned at the top of the show, the 49ers and Ravens game, and that’s also where I want to return for my burn. I of course am talking about 49ers color commentator Tim Ryan’s comments about why Lamar Jackson is so good at handoffs. If you don’t know, apparently it’s because when you, quote, “consider his dark skin, with a dark football, with a dark uniform, you could not see that thing at all.” That’s right, Lamar Jackson is good at handoffs because the ball just gets camouflaged by his Blackness! I can’t deal with this.
It’s just so interesting to watch Lamar Jackson do what Black quarterbacks have done for people for generations, which is: absolutely befuddle them. This is somebody who was passed off on by 28 teams, where teams considered him a project that they would have to work on and convert to a wide receiver. This is somebody who is currently on pace to be the MVP this season, if I had a vote, who is shattering records, who is filling out highlight reels because he is absolutely phenomenal. He’s second in the league in passing touchdown, he’s the fourth highest passer rating, he’s only thrown four interceptions all year. All year! But the key to his success is not all that, it is his Blackness that covers the ball so you can’t see it! It’s a trickery of your eyes!
Yeah, no, it’s just bullshit. Ryan’s apologized, they suspended him, the world moves on. What’s a little racism on a Thursday, or a Sunday, or whatever day of the week it is. A day ending in Y. I just want to burn it down, the continued foolery that comes with watching Lamar Jackson’s excellence. It’s dumb, it’s racist, there’s no place for it anywhere. He’s good at handoffs because he’s damn good at football, and I want to burn anything to the contrary of that. Burn.
Group: Burn!
Jessica: After all that burning it’s time to celebrate some remarkable women in sports this week with our badass women of the week segment. First up, our honorable mentions.
Megan Rapinoe won the Ballon d’Or, given out annually by the France Football Magazine to the world’s best soccer player. This is the second year they have included women in the award, despite handing out awards since 1956. Lucy Bronze was second in voting, Alex Morgan third. The Guardian named Sam Kerr their #1 overall player in soccer in 2019. Lucy Bronze, Megan Rapinoe, Ada Hegerberg and Amandine Henry rounded out the top five.
Congratulations to Washington State, North Carolina, Stanford, and UCLA for being the last four teams standing in women’s collegiate soccer this year. And as Amira pointed out to me, Washington state in particular, for making its first-ever college cup appearance. They went on a historic run for their program all the way to the semi finals.
Congratulations to Anne van Dam, a golfer from the Netherlands, who won the Andalucía Costa del Sol Open de España for the second straight year.
Congratulations to 11 year-old Charlotte Nebres who was cast as the first Black “Marie” for the New York City ballet’s production of The Nutcracker.
Asako Takakura has been named Coach of the Year by the Asian Football Confederation. The head of Nadeshiko women’s soccer has contributed greatly to the sport and this honour is well-deserved.
We are looking forward to golfer Michelle Wie’s insights during next year’s Masters. This week, CBS announced that Wie is joining their lineup for this upcoming golf season.
Rayadas de Monterrey defeated the Tigres UANL to win the Liga MX Femenil. Diana Evangelista scored the only goal of the match.
Congratulations to Lauren Gibbs and former Team Canada star Kallie Humphries on their World Cup victory for Team USA in the bobsled.
Lauren Holtkamp-Sterling became the first mom to officiate an NBA game when she reffed the Golden State Warriors/Chicago Bulls game this past week.
Shahida Abbasi, a Pakistani athlete from Hazara, won a gold medal in karate at the South Asian Games in Nepal, making her community and country proud.
Can I get a drumroll please?
Alright, our badass woman of the week is Becca Meyers, who broke the S12 400IM World Record at the US Paralympic National Championships this week. The 400IM is Butterfly, Breaststroke and Freestyle. It’s considered a particularly brutal swimming race because of the combination of speed and endurance that it takes to swim it, and I think that’s clear in the fact that this record stood for 29 years, before Myers broke it. She was TWELVE seconds faster when she came in at 5:17.81. That’s an amazing crushing of a really incredible record that stood for a really long time. So Becca Meyers, you are our badass woman of the week.
Okay. Let’s talk about what’s good in our worlds. I can’t say too much about this publicly right now, but I got to do this really cool fun thing this week. I actually did a little acting in a couple music videos for a friend of mine. The videos I think are coming out in February or March. He has a new album coming out next year and I’ll be blasting it everywhere at that point. I had never done anything like this before. I learned a lot of lingo like ‘OTS’ is ‘over the shoulder’ and to get in position when they yell “first position!” and it was all very new to me, and very exciting. I just had a lot of fun. So that was very good and fun for me this week. Lindsay, what’s good with you?
Lindsay: Yeah, I’m going to San Francisco this week! I’ve never been to San Francisco before-
Jessica: Oh, yay!
Amira: You’re gonna love it.
Lindsay: -I’ve never been to the Bay Area. I’m going for a couple of days for a fellowship, they’re flying me out there, I’m so excited to meet all the other fellowship recipients and meet a lot of inspiring people. Then a friend and I are renting an Airbnb place since we’re going to be there for the first time and gonna spend a few days in the Bay Area! So hit me up if you’re in that area. I’m gonna be trying to do some reporting and meet some people in the field and hopefully do some sightseeing and also somehow get out three Power Plays newsletters each week. We’ll see how this all works out! But I’m excited. I can’t wait. Like I said, I’ve never been, so this should be really fun.
Jessica: Yeah, that sounds great. Amira?
Amira: Yeah, so I’m back from Texas which was lovely and warm, I’m missing the 75 degrees.
Lindsay: Amira, your stories were amazing. All of those kids! Oh my gosh.
Amira: Yeah, it’s always fun to be home. My little cousins were running around, the kids and my nieces, we played cards, me and my brother beat my parents a few times and we think caused their divorce - I mean, they’re not divorced, they look like on the verge. That’s that happens!
Lindsay: I was like, oh, I get Amira now!
Amira: They’re very…We’re all very competitive. Including, I got to spend some time with my little cousin Alexis who is on the verge of her return to college ball, look out world! I’m excited. But exactly case in point, we all went out and played basketball and I ended up stopping to play to just full time make sure she didn’t get hurt because my brothers cannot understand, I’m like, “Stop hacking her! She actually has a career to worry about! You guys are bums! Leave her alone!” Our family has no sense of levels to this.
Lindsay: There’s no off switch.
Amira: Exactly. So that was fun, we had a really hard time getting home, multiple cancelled flights and all this. But we did make it home so we didn’t have to spend Jackson’s birthday in an airport, which we’ve done before. So I want to say happy birthday to my darling seven year old Jackson, he’s just the sweetest kid. We had his party yesterday, they built rockets at Discovery Space, it was very fun.
Jessica: Oh wow!
Amira: Yeah, it’s really cool and I don’t have to do anything which is why I like it, I just go.
Jessica: I understand.
Amira: Yes. So it was really nice, and also it’s a big week for Samari, this is the one week of the year where she’s in multiple productions. She goes back to DC to perform for her old theater company Imagination Stage and the gala there, and she’s also currently playing Donkey in Shrek Jr, and is also starring in Bye Bye Birdie. So this week she had rehearsals for three different productions currently, and somehow made it through, had a wonderful show. It’s wonderful to watch her on stage. It was a lot of family time, a lot of family things, and now I’m looking forward to getting in bed and curling up with Children of Virtue and Vengeance, which just came out.
Jessica: Yeah, we have our copy at our house! Yup.
Amira: So I’m getting in bed and reading young adult fantasy novels, because that’s my thing. And my room is warm, so that’s what’s good for me.
Jessica: I love it.
That’s it for this week’s episode. Thank you all for joining us. You can find Burn It All Down on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. If you want to subscribe to Burn It All Down, you can do so on Apple Podcasts, Soundcloud, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, TuneIn. For more information about the show and for links and transcripts to each episode, check out our website, burnitalldownpod.com. You can also email us from the site, we love hearing from you all. If you enjoyed this week’s show, do me a favor: share it with two people in your life whom you think would be interested in Burn It All Down. Also, please rate the show at whichever place you listen to it. The ratings really do help us reach new listeners who need this feminist sports podcast but don’t yet know it exists.
If you’re interested in Burn It All Down merchandise: pillows, blankets, hoodies, t-shirts, tote bags, those kind of things, check out our Teespring store where from now until the end of the year you can use the promo code HOLIDAYS and get 10% off your order. One more thank you to our patrons, we couldn’t do this without you. You can sign up to be a monthly sustaining donor of Burn It All Down at patreon.com/burnitalldown. That’s P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/burnitalldown. That’s it from us. Until next week, burn on, not out.